Praying to Mary

 Here is what Adonai says: "The earnings of Egypt, the commerce of Ethiopia, and men of stature from S'va will come over to you and become yours; they will come in chains and follow you. They will prostrate themselves before you; they will pray to you: 'Surely God is with you; there is no other, other gods are nothing.'" Isaiah 45:14 (Complete Jewish Bible)

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Protestant (shaking his head): I simply do not understand how you can worship Mary and idols. It is disgraceful and against God.

Catholic: We neither worship Mary, nor idols.

Protestant: Come on! I see you guys bowing down and praying to Mary. That is against the Bible!

Catholic: If I can show you in the bible where God Himself has people bowing down to others and praying to them, would you then re-assess your idea about Catholics?

Protestant (skeptically): It's in the Bible not to worship anything other than God. So no, its not in the Bible.

Catholic: In Isaiah 45, God specifically tells Israel that the people of surrounding nations will come before them, bow to them and pray to them. (See above text.)

Protestant: Your misinterpreting the text.

Catholic: No, look it up when you get home.
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Protestants are shocked when they discover that the words “bow” and “pray” in the Bible don’t exclusively mean worship. People bow to elders, parents, people of other nations, monarchs and angels in scripture. They even bow to inanimate things such as the Jerusalem temple and the Holy of Holies. Bowing can be used as a part of worship, but it can simply be a sign of respect for people and things.

It is the same with prayer. Note that in the Hebrew phrase above, "they will pray[palal] to you" the exact translation of the word palal (Strong’s # 06419) is an interceding prayer. 

Protestant Bibles often translate the Hebrew palal as “supplication” or “plead.”

KJV--they shall fall down unto thee, they shall make supplication unto thee... 

NAS--And will bow down to you; They will make supplication to you... 

ASV--and they shall fall down unto thee, they shall make supplication unto thee... 

NIV--will bow down before you and plead with you... 

NLT--They will fall to their knees in front of you... 

CEB--they will bow down. They will plead with you... 

ESV--bow down to you. They will plead with you,

But many translations use the word “pray.”

BBE--and they will go down on their faces before you, and will make prayer to you,  

GW--They will bow to you and pray to you, 

LEB--and they shall bow down to you; they will pray to you,    

NCV--They will bow down before you and pray to you,  

MSG--Hands folded in reverence, praying before you, 

Many of you might ask if this is the same word used for praying to God? Yes, the vast majority of the time palal is used to indicate a prayer to God. Here are some examples: 

Abraham prayed unto God [for Abimelech], Gen. 20:17.
Moses prayed unto the Lord, the fire was quenched. Nu. 11:2
 And she was in bitterness of soul, and prayed, Sam.1:10 
...they pray unto thee toward this city, 2 Chr. 6:34   
...when he prayed for his friends, Job 42:10 
...for unto thee will I pray, Ps. 5:2  
And I prayed unto the Lord, Dan. 9:4 

Before we go any further we need to stop and make this point. Even if end up disagreeing on the interpretation of this text, we can agree that this text is indeed in scripture that the Catholics didn’t make it up. Right there it says there will be bowing and praying to someone who isn’t God.

Catholic church interprets this text literally. You may choose to interpret the text another way, but you can never say that Catholics do not have a “proof-text” for their doctrine that says we can pray to others besides God.

For to Catholics this word palal is exactly what we mean when we pray to Mary and the saints. We are pleading with them, entreating them, supplicating them to intercede for us with Christ, exactly as Abraham prayed in behalf of Abimelech, Moses prayed for Israel an Job prayed for his friend in the above references.

We can ask our friends to pray for us. Indeed we can pray to God’s leaders (especially those reigning with Christ in heaven), even bowing to them, kneeling to them and supplicating them for intercessory prayer in our behalf.

This is Biblical. Catholics are praying/pleading with Mary and the saints who are right now in heaven to intercede before God for us. As we see in the text, God is quite happy with that.

They will prostrate themselves before you; they will pray to you: 'Surely God is with you; there is no other, other gods are nothing.'" Isaiah 45:14 (Complete Jewish Bible)

Answer to SDA Video about Catholic Bishop's Confession

See yesterday's post.

Adventists have always misunderstood both Christian history and Catholic doctrine. They continue to re-circulate ancient quotes as if they are authoritative for Catholics and often without any understanding of what the Catholic writers even mean.

I would like to take the quotes read from this Seventh-day Adventist actor playing the part of a Catholic bishop and analyze them one by one.

Before we do, let's look at the transcript right before the beginning of this clip. SDA televangelist John Carter claims: 

46:06 And my friend who is here today is going to come and he's going to read Mr. Vincent Morton he's going to come and read from the official writings of the as they call it the holy Roman Catholic Church. Listen to this, these are the unadulterated statements from Popes and other Roman Catholic leaders.

This is patently false as you will see. None of the quotes that follow (which are on the clip) are "official" in the sense that they represent the understanding of the magisterium of the Catholic Church and Christian history. 

The Five Quotes in the Clip

Two quotes are by Catholic Redemptorist (that's what the CSSR is) Thomas Enright : 

48:03 I have repeatedly offered $1000 to anyone who can prove to me from the Bible alone that I am bound to keep Sunday holy. There is no such law in the Bible, it is a law of the holy Catholic Church alone. The Bible says remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy. The Catholic Church says no by my divine power I abolish the Sabbath day and command you to keep holy the first day of the week. And lo the entire civilized world bows down in a reverent obedience to the command of the holy Catholic Church. T. Enright C.S.S.R. in an electorate Harford Kansas,  February 18th, 1884. 

51:25 I have repeatedly offered one thousand dollars to anyone who will prove by the Bible alone that Sunday IS the day we are bound to keep, and no one has called for the money. It was the holy Catholic Church that changed the day of rest from Saturday, the seventh day, to Sunday, the first day of the week, T. Enright, C. S. S. R., in a lecture delivered in 1893.

(3ABN, Carter Report, The Priest's Confession, Part 2, Program transcript. Series code: CR, Program code: CR001105)

Note the similarities in the two quotes. The transcript gives very little information to track down the source. When I googled them, I discovered the quotes in anti-catholic sites but with differing sources. I tracked them down to the earliest SDA publication that I could find. The Signs of the Times, August 5, 1907, p. 489:

Papal Claims 

"...I will give $1000 to any man who will prove by the Bible alone that Sunday is the day we are bound to keep. . . . The observance of Sunday is "The Pope's will stands for reason. He can dispense solely a law of the Catholic Church. . . . The church changed the Sabbath to Sunday, and all the world bows down and worships upon that day, in silent obedience to the mandates of the Catholic Church."— "Father" Enright, of the College of Redemptorist Fathers, Kansas City, Mo., in Hartford (Mo.) Weekly Call, Feb. 22, 1884.

"The Catholic Church says, No! By my divine power I abolish the Sabbath day, and command you to keep holy the first day of the week. And, lo, the entire civilised world bows down in reverent obedience to the command of the holy Catholic Church !"—'Father" T. Enright, C.S.S.R., of Redemptorist College, Kansas City, Mo., in American Sentinel, June 1, 1893.

Please note the sources are different in the video and in Signs of the Times (Hartford, Mo. vs. Hartford, Ks). Even the wording has changed somewhat. Yet the Signs of the Times gives additional information that make it easier to verify the authenticity of the quote.

Therefore, after investigation we can dismiss the quotes because: 

• There was no record of a Redemptorist named Thomas Enright at that time. (The Catholics keep records.) [NOTE: update--someone sent me a link of a obituary of a Redemptorist Timothy Enright that may the guy.]
• The Signs of the Times second quote sources the American Sentinel which is problematic because the Philadelphia newspaper shut down in 1840.  

[* UPDATE: A man sent me a link with a scan of two letters where this man "Father Enright" challenged that he would pay anyone who could find a proof-text for Sunday. However, the scan of the letter never indicated that it was in a lecture. ("Lecture" must have been a typo) So, the guy may be a legitimate priest, we however are not sure about the context of the personal letter.]

Let's deal with the other three quotes as a group because they are all legitimate Catholic writers in legitimate Catholic periodicals. 

49:03 The Catholic Church for over one thousand years before the existence of a Protestant by virtue of her divine mission changed the day from Saturday to Sunday the Catholic Mirror, Sep. 23rd, 1893. 

49:22 Question, which is the Sabbath day? Answer, Saturday is the Sabbath day. Question, why do we observe Sunday instead of Saturday? Answer, we observe Sunday instead of Saturday, because the Catholic Church in the Council of Laodicea 336A.D. transferred the solemnity from Saturday to Sunday. Peter Giermann, Converts Catechism, 1910, page 50. 

50:01 Question, have you any other way of proving that the church has power to institute festivals of precept? Answer, has she not such power she could not have done that in which all modern religionists agree with her. She could not have substituted the observance of Sunday the first day of the week for the observance of Saturday the seventh day. The change for which there is no scriptural authority. Stephen Keenan, 'A Doctrinal Catechism' page 174, [1846]

These three publications, even with the nil obstat  or imprimatur in no way gives them the authority of the Catholic Church. It just means that there is no heresy that the bishop could find in the book. These labels are not infallible and never were thought to be. Catholic books with the thumbs up from bishops can and do have these "thumbs ups" removed. Samuele Bacchiocci's book was eventually stripped of its imprimatur. 

Think about this, a hundred years from now someone trying to prove the SDA church hates science and no members can believed in evolution may publish this quote to prove it:

"As long as you stick to the Bible (and Ellen White's books and articles) you will not go wrong. For those among us who have already decided--despite the Bible and Ellen White--on evolution, there are plenty of other churches for you. Ours isn't one." Cliff Goldstein, Adventist Review July 24, 2003

Cliff Goldstein is a bona fide leader of the SDA church. He is an employee of the General Conference and speaks for the church. The Adventist Review is a church publication, right?

Actually, Cliff is expressing his opinion, even in this church publication. Catholic priests can do that and do so all the time. The above quotes are just that. The quotes in the clip are from individual Catholics giving their opinions even in Catholic periodicals. But they cannot be used to prove Catholic doctrine. 

Let me explain just a bit more. The Sabbatarian Sabbath was really not an issue for a thousand years. Sixteenth-century puritans began arguing among each other about a Sunday Sabbath or a Saturday Sabbath. Even priests in America and Great Britain were drug into the argument without being educated, because frankly, sabbatarianism wasn't high on their priority list. 

So, if you truly want to know what the Catholics believe, don't go back any further than Pope John Paul II's encyclical, Dies Domini. He dealt thoroughly with this subject and this is the official,  (as John Carter said earlier) "unadulterated" Catholic doctrines. Use this to form your understanding about Catholic beliefs on the Sabbath. 

http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/apost_letters/documents/hf_jp-ii_apl_05071998_dies-domini_en.html

Those quotes are simply not relevant to the subject. 

The bishop is fictional. 
The authority given these quotes is fictional. 

If you want truth... what Catholics really believe? To the current Catechism and Magisterium you go! Ask the Vatican!

FRAUDULENT CLIP CIRCULATED BY ADVENTISTS!!

(Note: This video is not being circulated by the SDA church, but some members.) 

You won't know it by watching, but this clip is from The Carter Report, a Seventh-day Adventists evangelistic outreach. There is nothing in the video clip that suggests it is a Seventh-day Adventist production. It is made to look as if a real Catholic bishop is standing in front of a secular audience at some type of international or press conference. All of it is fake folks! 

And the Catholic Bishop isn't a bishop at all. He's an actor. 

A few minutes ago I just talked on the phone to the Carter Report and they are claiming that someone cut a clip out of the service and without their permission is circulating it as if it is real. This isn't even a former bishop who converted to Adventism as some are wondering. This is an actor pretending to be a bishop misquoting Catholic sources. 

The Carter Report better be careful or they will end up being charged with fraud. On many levels. First they went to the trouble of purchasing or making bishop's vestments, then even wore the scholarly biretta, nice touch. Then they clip Catholic quotes and distort them repulsively. Catholic scholars have often implored the SDA church to quit falsifying their doctrines and history. Adventists still use these bogus quotes as if they have "exposed" a hidden agenda. 

The quotes are as concocted as the bishop.




This is a SDA evangelist Carter Report television SET! All you see and all you hear is for entertaining and indoctrination purposes. Learn the truth about Catholicism. This is a distortion.

Read the Catechism and specifically read Pope John Paul II's Dies Domini.

(UPDATE: Someone just wrote me and told me that the people who edited this from its original context are an independent group of SDAs. It's source may be 3ABN. We're still looking into it. However, even if John Carter clearly told his audience that it was an actor, and the transcript shows Mr. Carter said nothing, the visual adds authority to the misinformation. 

Did Catholics Change the Sabbath

JimmyAkin

Did the Catholic Church "Change the Sabbath"?

BY JIMMY AKIN Thursday, October 11, 2012 9:17 PM Comments (3)

Did the Catholic Church "Change the Sabbath"?

You sometimes encounter the charge that the Catholic Church wrongly "changed the sabbath" from Saturday to Sunday. This claim is often made by Seventh-Day Adventists, for example. But even if one isn't accusing the Church of wrongdoing, the question can still arise: Why do Catholics worship on Sunday rather than Saturday? Here's the story . . .

What Day the Sabbath Is

First, let's clear away a potential source of confusion. While it's true that people sometimes speak of Sunday as "the Christian sabbath," this is a loose way of speaking. Strictly speaking, the sabbath is the day it always was--Saturday--though it should be noted that traditionally Jewish people have celebrated the sabbath from sundown on Friday to sundown on Saturday. Sunday is a distinct day, which follows the sabbath. The Catechism of the Catholic Church explains:

2175 Sunday is expressly distinguished from the sabbath which it follows chronologically every week; for Christians its ceremonial observance replaces that of the sabbath. In Christ's Passover, Sunday fulfills the spiritual truth of the Jewish sabbath and announces man's eternal rest in God. For worship under the Law prepared for the mystery of Christ, and what was done there prefigured some aspects of Christ.

Why We Celebrate Sunday

That same paragraph explains why we celebrate on Sunday. For Christians the ceremonial observance of Sunday replaces that of the sabbath. Properly speaking, we're not celebrating the sabbath on Sunday. We're celebrating something else, but it's something that the sabbath points toward. As the Catechism says, the Jewish sabbath announces man's eternal rest in God and prefigures some aspects of Christ. Sunday thus fulfills what the sabbath pointed toward.

The Lord's Day

What we are celebrating instead of the sabbath is "the Lord's day." That's something Christians have celebrated since the first century. In fact, in the very first chapter of Revelation, we read that John experienced the inaugural vision of the book on "the Lord's day." He writes:

I John, your brother, who share with you in Jesus the tribulation and the kingdom and the patient endurance, was on the island called Patmos on account of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus.

I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and I heard behind me a loud voice like a trumpet [Revelation 1:9-10].

And he goes on to describe the vision of Jesus Christ he received. For our purposes, the important thing to note is that he speaks of the Lord's day as an already-established thing. He expects his readers to know what it is. So, when is it?

 

Read more: http://www.ncregister.com/blog/jimmy-akin/did-the-catholic-church-change-the-sabbath#ixzz295mwrVDc

America Reaps What It Has Sown

Do not be deceived, God is not mocked: for whatever a man sows, this he will also reap. For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life. Galatians 6: 7, 8

Christians,

I understand your reaction after yesterday's Supreme Court ruling. The conservatives in our nation are in a state of shock and we want to normalize and have hope. So we all talked about Mitt Romney--getting him elected in order to overturn this disaster. I am not in any way criticizing that. It was a normal reaction. A civil shock would suggest a civil response.

However, our America has been in a train wreck and its people are in trauma. Naturally we are attempting to stabilize the wounded in order to get them to the hospital for live-saving treatment. But we must not fool ourselves. The stabilization is not the treatment.

This is not a national crisis of politics. This is a national crisis of morality and a crisis of Christian courage to stand up and speak truth. 


We, as a nation, have sown the seeds of evil for decades. Almost fifty million unborn children have been slaughtered and tossed into wastebaskets on our soil. Pornography, contraception, fornication, adultery, homosexuality, divorce, child-abandonment, greed, irresponsibility, isolation, throwing away of our elderly into nursing homes to die alone, educating our children into wickedness and ungodliness, pride, selfishness, disrespect of authority;... we sit in front of the television and laugh each night as Hollywood mocks God and we laugh at sin and we excuse it as relaxing.... these are some the evil seeds we have sown.

And the worst of any of it is that we have, as a nation, turned away from seeing the problem. We have failed to act against the tsunami of evil. Rather than fight against the raging waters we have given in and floated to our own destruction.

God will not be mocked. We are reaping that which we have sown.

Yes, Mitt Romney, if elected, has the potential of giving our nation a temporary reprieve. But unless we repent, our nation is going down.

Everybody is ignoring the obvious because no one wants to be the crazy person who points it out. Our nation is not being run by the people. Something wicked this way has come to the beltway, and it ain't the people! DC is in the total control of something other than us out here in the fly over states. We are a conservative nation in our hearts, even if we have allowed wickedness to thrive. We are pro-family and pro-life and yet we cannot win even the teeniest of federal legislation.

Something evil has been allowed to crawl into our capital and hold the souls of our leaders hostage. We know it, we can feel it, but no one wants to actually say it.

Our only hope is not Mitt Romney, but us. WE must repent and turn from our evil ways. Don't look to Washington, DC for salvation from the craziness of our country. Vote Mitt, yes, indeed and absolutely vote Mitt--just as we would call an ambulance for someone internally bleeding. But then we must have the operation to fix the bleeding. And that is to fall at the foot of the cross and repent and turn from our wicked ways.

"If my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then will I hear from heaven and will forgive their sin and will heal their land." II Chr. 7:14

Catholics, Contraception and the Fortnight for Freedom

(I posted this on my facebook page because someone asked. Thought I might post it here in case anyone is interested.)

  

What I am writing, I am not writings to proselytize or convince anyone. What I am doing is making clear what Catholics believe and why. I am aware the Protestants do not view this in the same way.

Catholics teach what they believe Christ handed down to the Apostles. They pass down the Word of God in two different ways--the oral and written word. The oral is "Tradition" ; the written is the Bible. Both are God-breathed and are authoritiative for the Catholic.

From the beginning of the church, it has been both pro-life and pro-babies (lots of documents to prove this). BEFORE the church had a unified, written doctrine of the Trinity or of the Divinity of Christ, the church was pro-life and against contraceptives. This is not only a cross over from Judaism, but Christ Himself taught this. It is one of the most ancient of all doctrines.

(Also note that ALL Christians--ALL Christians taught contraception was morally sinful until 1930 and the Anglican Church at the Lambeth Conference opened up contraception for married couples under certain circumstances. Since the 1970's only the Catholic Church continues to teach contraception is a sin.)

The Catholic Church teaches that this isn't our opinion or interpretation of scripture, the Apostles actually taught this and the church--HEARING it from them, passed and passes it down (the source of this doctrine is NOT scripture but actually those listening to the disciples teach it and then they go and teach it as well.)... This was the VERY WORD of God and cannot ever under ANY circumstance change. We, as Christians, are under the most solemn command to pass this on as His Word whether or not we agree or like or dislike it.  

 The woman's womb is the Lords and He opens and closes it. It is a grave sin--in fact an insulting slap in the face of God--to tell our Creator that we don't want to have His babies. (Again, Catholic use the written word to support this teaching of Christ, but the teaching itself is derrived from the early church listening to the Apostles and passing it down orally through the church. We teach this a directly coming from the mouth of Christ and given as truth for His Apostles to teach. That is the source of the doctrine--the oral teachings of Christ.)

 The very first command to the humans was "be fruitful and multiply" and that was commanded after Noah's ark landed and again with Israel. God's ultimate gift to mankind is to be like Him and create children in our own image just as God created us in His own image. It is a profound and powerful gift of God. ALL sexual immorality stems from this concept of the gift of pro-creation and our sinful attempt to possess it and manipulate it. 

For a Catholic, this is not something we can redefine, Christ's doctrine cannot "grow" wiith the times or be in anyway dilluted for the culture. It is what it is and we must remain faithful to our responsibility to pass down the Word of God even if we have to die doing it.

With this HHS mandate (part of the Heathcare Law) that requires Catholics to purchase contraception and abortifacient drugs, we are placed in an absolute crossroads. There is no compromise available to us--either capitulating to the legal process or standing and insisting that "we will NOT comply" with a law that causes us to sin against our Father. 

Adventists will understand with the whole Sabbath law prophecies of being "forced to worship on Sunday." Now, that I have presented the dilemma, some personal commentary.

 1. It is a little irritating that the USCCB (United States Conference of Catholic Bishops) have forever pushed the Democrat candidates and couldn't see this one coming. If Catholics had not voted in Obama, we wouldn't be in this predicament. So for the church to now ask God to come in and intervene with a miracle is showing a lack of understanding and naivete.

 Jesus taught that He will NOT be mocked, what we sew we will reap. America has sewn bad seed and now wants to reap a harvest of plenty? I personally could NEVER deliberately take action in one way and when the outcome is exactly what was anticipated then go and ask God to please get me out of the mess I made. (Well, not totally true, but it is what I logical demand of myself. If you eat ice cream every day, it is immature to beg God not to allow it to go to fat!)

 2. First we need to pray for repentence. This whole focus on praying for freedom just cuts me the wrong way. We need to be humble and submissive to God's will in this one and our Constitutional rights as American citizens need to be a secondary issue. We have lots of repenting to do before we can petition our Creator for His help.

So the whole Fortnight of Freedom is the Catholic Church having 24/7 prayers at church and is encouraging fasting and writing congress in order to restore our religous liberties taken away with the Obama Healthcare Law. I support that and I will be involved in all of it, from fasting to praying to petitioning my government. I will first, however, petition God for mercy upon us, to forgive us our sins both as an individual Christian (me) and then as Christians and then as a nation. Repentance needs to be our first and primary focus, then ask our Father for intervention in this horrible situation. We deserve this, gulp. We really do. God have mercy on us.....

The SDA Response to Catholic's Religious Liberty

The SDA statement falls short of other evangelical's response such as "We are all Catholics now" and "We will go to jail with you" I guess this is a good as it can get for Adventists. A bit lukewarm, but when you consider the shock that must be going through the denomination for having to even consider that it is the CATHOLICS who are undergoing the first wave of religious intolerance in this country... and they are being asked to come to its rescue, that has got to be stirring quite the great controversy in their last day beliefs! 


http://religiousliberty.info/birth-control-and-religious-liberty-an-adventist-perspective

Birth Control and Religious Liberty: An Adventist Perspective

What principles should guide the Adventist Church's response to the current debate in the United States about government-mandated health insurance coverage for contraception? The Public Affairs and Religious Liberty department, along with the Office of General Counsel, reviews some long-standing values that will help chart our course.

An Adventist Response to the U.S. Health and Human Services Contraception Insurance Regulation

On January 20, 2012, the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services issued a final rule mandating that employers including religious employers who provide health insurance to their employees must provide a full range of contraceptive services to women without co-pay, co-insurance or deductible. This will include all Food and Drug Administration approved forms of contraception as well as female sterilization.

Various religious organizations, including the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops, have raised concerns about being required to provide services that they find morally objectionable. While the ultimate impact of the new rule is not yet known, a number of religious organizations that do not object to contraception have also raised religious liberty concerns.

For the Seventh-day Adventist Church and its institutions the provision of contraceptive services does not impinge on the denomination’s religious liberty. The Adventist Church’s principles do not prohibit the use of contraception. See Birth Control: A Seventh-day Adventist Statement of Consensus. Health insurance offered by most if not all U.S. Adventist institutions currently covers contraceptive services.

Consistent with its longstanding practice of defending religious liberty and freedom of conscience for all, the Seventh-day Adventist Church is concerned any time government requires a religious organization to violate its religious beliefs. The General Conference Public Affairs and Religious Liberty Department and the Office of General Counsel continue to watch this developing issue closely and will do all that is appropriate to defend and protect religious liberty and freedom of conscience.

Reprinted with permission from the General Conference Department of Public Affairs and Religious Liberty.

Dying For Christ

Christians around the world are being persecuted for being Christians. They are not asked what day they worship on. They are not asked if they believe in infant baptism or if they believe in eternal security. They are placed in prison for who they believe in--Jesus Christ. This is not a mock up. And this is not a Seventh-day Adventist. It is Father Ly, a Vietnamese Catholic priest who was seized and imprisoned for publicly speaking about Christ.