Thursday, January 19, 2012

The GREAT DEBATE: Worshiping on Sunday: the first 3 Centuries

I would like to invite Seventh-day Adventists or any Christian to enter this debate.

CALLING ADVENTIST APOLOGISTS! Come and post your evidence for this important topic. It is silly for me to be arguing your side. We want to be fair to you....! Since Doug Batchelor just wrote a book having a debate with himself, I thought we would invite him here to debate another person. 

If it is not against God's will for us to worship on Sunday today, what scriptural evidence can you bring to the debate that backs up your prophecy that one day worshipping on Sunday will be against God? 

That is your claim. Defend it Biblically.

The topic/proposition being debated is:

Christians worshipped on Sunday for the first three hundred years of Christianity before the time of Emperor Constantine

To avoid confusion, two generic names will head each side:

Non-SDA Christian Apologist 
The Proposition/Positive side (Non-SDA) should attempt to prove this statement.
Adventist Apologist 
The Opposition/Negative side (Adventist) should attempt to disprove this statement.

Sources that will be accepted are:

  •  The Bible: (Catholic and Protestant) mainstream translations such as ASV, KJV, NIV, NASB, RSV, etc. No paraphrases.
  • Primary sources: Sacred and secular writings of the first three hundred years. 
  • Secondary sources: Generally accepted ecclesiastical histories such as written by Eusebius, Bede, Schaff, etc.
Only sources accepted by mainstream Christian churches will be allowed. Sources, when possible, should be easily available for referencing. Internet links are encouraged.

All comments will be reviewed before posting and those with clear, logical arguments will be posted. Sarcasm, insults or rude comments or comments that are deemed irrelevant or illogical will not be posted. Please be clear and concise, keeping all comments related to the topic. Editors may cut your comments if too wordy or redundant and correct spelling and grammatical errors.

We will attempt to give equal time (space in this case) for both sides.

 All are welcome to post in the debate. Questions will come at the end, so as you watch the debate be thinking of questions you wish to ask of either side.


Non SDA Christian Apologist:
The proposition of the debate is to prove that the early Christians worshipped on Sunday. 

Why is this debate important? Because the Seventh-day Adventist Church teaches that the only day of corporate worship that God approves of is the seventh day, Saturday. Their last-day prophecies include a test of Christianity based upon what day you worship God. They predict a law will be passed that forces everyone to go to church on Sunday. Those who attend church on Sunday will receive the Mark of the Beast and will not be saved. Seventh-day Adventist who remain true to God's appointed Sabbath will be imprisoned, tortured and even killed by those who go to church on Sunday.

This elitist doctrine that teaches Sunday is the wrong day to worship wounds us all, permanently cleaving the Body of Christ in direct disobedience to Christ's command that we unite as Christians. 

The proposition is not about a sabbath rest day. It is a debate to prove that Sunday has always been a day of worship for Christians. There is no Biblical evidence, no prophecy, that worshipping on Sunday was, is or ever will be wrong.

We will be looking at historical evidence to prove that indeed, the early Christians from the time of the Apostles up until the time of Constantine worshipped corporately as a body of Christ on Sunday.

If the early church worshipped on Sunday before the time of Constantine then:

  • Worshipping on Sunday will never be a sign of disobedience to God’s laws nor will those who worship on Sunday receive the Mark of the Beast. 
  • The SDA Sunday law prophecy is not from God and causes a unchristian elitism and disunity in the Body of Christ. 
Again, we remind those reading that this is not a debate about Sabbath, so please keep all comments within the structure of the debate topic. This is about worshipping on Sunday. Thank you.
Adventist Apologist:

Since there have been no counter introductory statements, I will attempt to write one for the SDA side. I will happily remove mine and insert an Adventist Apologist side when I receive one.

This is indeed, for the Adventist, a very important subject. And since you have narrowed the field of debate considerably, I feel we cannot get at the heart of the matter. For, as an Adventist, the heart is a rejection of the Sabbath, not worshipping on Sunday. No Adventist believes it is wrong to worship on Sunday or any day of the week. 

There are differing opinions within Adventism about when Christians began to worship on Sunday, and there are differing opinions about how trustworthy primary sources are when using historical accounts outside of scripture. 

So, defending the SDA position, I will point rather to scripture instead of early Christian writings. What man wrote just doesn't really matter, it is what God thinks that is important. Just because the early church practiced something, doesn't give it positive proof that it was of God.

The SDA side will attempt to prove that there are two faulty lines that you have drawn:

1. You presume, Teresa, that even if the early church celebrated the Lord's Day on Sunday, that they did so in obedience to God. It is very possible they worshipped on Sunday to avoid persecution or as a concession to Rome.

2. You also presume that if the early church did worship on Sunday that it somehow negates an end-time scenario where a day of worship is the test for Christians. Your assumption is a non-sequitor.

As an Adventist Apologist, I will attempt to prove that:

  • First, there is no definitive Biblical proof that the early church worshipped on Sunday. That interpretations of certain texts that may give that impression are debated even among non-SDA theologians. 
  • Secondly, there is Biblical proof that a rejection of the Sabbath commandment (the 4th commandment) as a last day test of Christian fidelity to Christ is firmly rooted in scripture. 
Thank you and we are looking forward to a vigorous, logical and Christian debate.

[We will be keeping this Opening Statement available for an authentic Adventist Apologist.]

SECTION ONE: Presenting of the Evidence

Non-SDA Christian Apologist:

Mr. Adventist Apologist, I think you have made two very good points and one of them I must address in my evidence. I agree that I should prove that the early church went to church on Sunday, not out of fear, not out of coercion or compromise, but as a part of following the Apostle's directive. I think we can do that. And I think I can do that with scripture alone, even if I will add to that evidence plenty of primary sources of individual Christian historical accounts.

Your second point, that it is a non-sequitor to assume just because the early church attended church on Sunday does not automatically negate an end-time prophecy pivoting upon a day of worship. Good catch.. you are correct. 

But then I must point out to you that it will be your responsibility to prove that the scriptures do indeed specifically indicate a day of worship as a last day test. You cannot base such a monumental and divisive doctrine on a whim--you will have to prove such a test with direct biblical evidence.

Okay to begin, I must start with the Old Testament because it builds a foundation of worshipping God on Sunday that is used by the Apostles when they meet for worship. Remember at that time the early church was mainly Hebrew. They carried forth a lot of the elements of worship into Christianity. Even worship on Sunday.

The Hebrews in Jerusalem did not have one day a week they worshipped corporately. They worshipped daily at the temple. We know this not only from Old Testament sources, but new. The writer of the book of Hebrews recorded: 

Now when these things have been so prepared, the priests are continually entering the outer tabernacle performing the divine worship. Hebrews 9: 6 
Please note that divine worship is happening daily! (See also Heb. 7:27 and 10:11) 
Every Sunday there was worship going on. All day long people would be coming to worship and give offerings and sacrifices. Everyday worship occurred. Every Sunday worship was going on in the Temple.  Once in the Promised Land, only three times a year was there a mandatory holy assembly for all Israel at the Temple and they would often fall on Sunday.  (Lev. 23 convocation on the weekly Sabbath is debatable, many Hebrew scholars says that this particular command for a weekly Sabbath was only during the Tabernacle period in the wilderness, for travel logistic reasons.)

Exodus 12 and Leviticus 23 record the Feast of the Unleavened Bread (Passover) and specifically called a “memorial” and a holy assembly. It is commanded to be kept as a permanent ordinance. On the first day is a “holy assembly, and another holy assembly on the seventh day; no work at all shall be done on them, except what must be eaten by every person, that alone may be prepared by you.” (v. 47)  “All the congregation of Israel are to celebrate this.” 
Leviticus records the seriousness of this, “any person who does any work on this same day, that person I will destroy from among his people.” The holy convocation of Passover can occur on Sunday. The last one being 2008.
And he shall wave the sheaf before the Lord for you to be accepted; on the day after the sabbath [Sunday] the priest shall wave it. Lev. 23:11
The day of Pentecost, another holy assembly can occur on Sunday. Leviticus 23 requires  
On exactly the fifteenth day of the seventh month, when you have gathered in the crops of the land, you shall celebrate the feast of the LORD for seven days, with a rest on the first day and a rest on the eighth day. 
You shall also count for yourselves from the day after the sabbath [Sunday], from the day when you brought in the sheaf of the wave offering; there shall be seven complete sabbaths. You shall count fifty days to the day after the seventh sabbath [Sunday]; then you shall present a new grain offering to the Lord.
Sundays as well as Saturdays were considered holy assemblies. One was not pitted against the other. See also Number 28:18. 
This year, in 2012, the Jews will celebrate the two holy convocations of Pentecost on Sunday. 
There has never been a time that worshipping on Sunday would be considered going against the commandments of God. God would not have required His holy assemblies of all Israel to occur on Sunday if this were wrong. 
There is no indication anywhere within the pages of scripture that would suggest that any day is a wrong day to worship God. Or that there would be a last day test on a day.

Now we go to the New Testament.  Does the New Testament specify a day, and only one day we should worship God? No!
Where is He who has been born King of the Jews ? For we saw His star in the east and have come to worship Him. Matt. 2: 2
This does not specify a day. Would Joseph have sent them away if they arrived on a Sunday? 
Nothing Christ did can be dismissed as accidental. Everything He did and when He did it was significant. Jesus went to the Temple daily to teach. (Mark 14: 49). If worshipping on Sunday were somehow wrong, wouldn’t Jesus have cleansed the Temple specifically on that day and explained to everyone that Sunday was the wrong day to worship God? 
On Sunday, Jesus conquered death by rising and showed Himself to His followers as the Divine God! (Matt. 28:1; Mark 16:2, 9; John 20:19) On Sunday, Thomas worshipped Him! (John 20:27-28). That evening, on Sunday, Jesus worshipped with them at the Communion meal (Luke 22:19; Luke 24:31) and gave them His Holy Spirit and His peace then commissioned them to be the leaders of His Kingdom by forgiving sins (John 20).
The church was born on a Sunday at Pentecost. (Acts 2: 41)

And if this isn’t enough, these two text alone should wrap up this subject:

Day by day continuing with one mind in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, they were taking their meals together with gladness and sincerity of heart, Acts 2: 26 
And every day, in the temple and from house to house, they kept right on teaching and preaching Jesus as the Christ. Acts 5: 42. 
Every single day the disciples came together to worship, including Sundays. How do you think there were souls being added to their number, being baptized daily? (Acts 2: 4, 47) These early Christians were very Jewish in their rituals and worship of God would be included in all of these baptismal rites. They worshipped every single day including Sunday. There is no evidence anywhere that they avoided worship on Sunday if it were wrong.
Paul worshipped God by having a communion service and preaching on Sunday. (Acts. 20:7)

Then we go to early historical accounts by Christians: 
In the early part of the second century, maybe as early as the lifetime of the Apostle John (c.100-130), a Alexandrian Christian leader named Barnabas wrote a letter to an unknown audience. Although the letter was not considered inspired; it was widely read among Alexandrian Christians as authoritative and historically accurate. In this letter, the presbyter acknowledges that, “we keep the eighth day with joyfulness, the day also on which Jesus rose again from the dead.” This letter shows how early the church was celebrating the Lord’s Day, Sunday. 
Scholars are confident about dating Ignatius’ letter to AD 107. As the third bishop of Antioch who was taught by the Apostles, he was held in great respect for his courageous martyrdom. He clearly shows the early church’s ideas about worshipping on the day of “new hope,” Sunday: in the observance of the Lord's Day, on which also our life has sprung up again by Him...let every friend of Christ keep the Lord's day as a festival, the resurrection-day, the queen and chief of all the days [of the week]" "Epistle of Ignatius to the Magnesians," 
Justin Martyr was a second generation Christian and one of the earliest known Christian apologists. He wrote, in the mid second century less than fifty years after the death of the last apostle (First Apology, ch. 67):
And on the day called Sunday all who live in cities or in the country gather together in one place, and the memoirs of the apostles or the writings of the prophets are read....But Sunday is the day on which we all hold a common assembly, because it is the first day of the week on which God...made the world; and Jesus Christ our Savior on the same day rose from the dead.
The Apostolic Constitutions, dated sometime in the second century commands that “On the day of the resurrection of the Lord--that is, the Lord's Day--assemble yourself together without fail, giving thanks to God and praising Him for those mercies God has bestowed upon you through Christ.”
Bishop of Lyon, also a mid 2nd century Christian leader, also tells us that the church worshipped on Sunday--all the way in Gaul, “The Mystery of the Lord's Resurrection may not be celebrated on any other day than the Lord's Day, and on this alone should we observe the breaking off of the Paschal Feast.”
Going down south to Greece, we find the Bishop Dionysius writing in AD170 to the church in Corinth that they pass Sunday, “this holy Lord's Day, in which we read your letter, from the constant reading of which we shall be able to draw admonition.” Eusebius, Ecclesiastical History, Bk. 4, Ch. 23
At the end of the 2nd century, we travel farther south to Egypt where Clement, the Bishop of Alexandria, records that the Christian, “keeps the Lord's day.”  Bk 7, Ch. 12. And Bishop of Africa, Tertullian records this in his Apology, “We solemnize the day after Saturday in contradistinction to those who call this day their Sabbath.” He even refutes the pagan claim that the early church worshipped the sun, because they worshipped on Sunday, “[It is supposed] that the sun is the god of the Christian, because it is a well- known fact that we pray towards the east, or because we make Sunday a day of festivity.” The Ante-Nicene Fathers, vol. 3, p. 123.
All you have to do is type in the person into google and you can easily find the original source. 
Israel was called by God to corporately worship on Sunday. The early church met to "break bread" or hold communion worship services on Sunday--in fact every singe day. There is no indication anywhere in any writings that they were compromising their beliefs. There is no evidence anywhere, no cry from a prophet or pastor that condemns Christians for worshipping on Sunday. 
Therefore I cannot find a shred of evidence anywhere that God would, all of a sudden, 1800 after the dawn of Christianity suddenly give a new reading of scripture and a new vision of Christianity to a small group of Seventh-day Adventists condemning worshipping on Sunday. 
First presentation of evidence for Adventist Apologists is open for anyone now....please send in your position comments now.


Teresa Beem said...

We are getting many comments already that do not like the premise of the debate. We can debate the Sabbath another time. So I will not be posting these comments.

If you wish your comments to be included in the debate, please respect the topic at hand.

If your comment (or a relevant portion of your comment) was published it will be placed within the text debate.

Please include your email address if you have questions about your comments that are not posted. There is no way for me to answer them unless you include your email. Thank you.

Marcus said...

as per your request at an outside website I have copied and pasted this here:

and now we are forgetting the written evidence of barnabus, turtillian, martyr and john of again we can claim rome changed something that was controversial. Well there is not a single bit of evidence that any controversy was at hand in 356, ...think of it this way, Adventism decides to change to sunday, and the General Council issues an edict that says... sundays are now our day to you think there would be a tiny bit of written evidence left over from that?.... or course there would be.... but no such evidence exists from the edicts at the council. Barnabus letter martyr letters, turtillian letters all date from 60 AD as well as the revelation of John.... I" I was in the spirit on the lords day" The evidence from the day shows that basically from the ressurection sunday was the day. Gentiles of the day had no pre-conceived day, appearing to be "not jewish" had its advantages as well. Geoff is correct that there was no "venerable day of the sun" that affected sabbath. So in essence the evidence sadly points to christ alledgedly returning on the first the following first day, arriving the first day after that....which set the pattern of meeting and expcting that Jesus would show up. So the bible story seems well crafted to put a sunday meeting day in place, and at the very least, there is no need to hate catholics, the change was made ( according to the evidence... not your gut feeling or what your parents told you ) well in advance of the papacy. Just for the record, there of course is no God, there is no evidence for Christ anywhere but the bible, so if you are claiming Catholics did something "wrong" about a day regarding a mythical charactor..and some paganism got mixed in....dont worry, go live your life....

reborndolls said...

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cheezgratr80 said...

Wow this is all interesting. I found a few errors regarding the Adventist beliefs of worshipping on Saturday and/or Sunday. But my main point is that. We can worship God on any day. Why should we limit it to one day. The ten commandments say "The Lord blessed the Seventh day and made it holy." In Genesis it also says " On the seventh day He rested from all his work." Adventists see biblically that Saturday (Sabbath) is the day that is blessed by God and the day to keep holy and rest on. Jesus did it. When He was in the tomb He rested on the Sabbath. Of course we can worship Him any day! But the Sabbath is His special day. And I believe that you will be saved even if you don't worship on Sunday (As in being a non-adventists) I believe their will be lots of non-adventists in Heaven.

Teresa Beem said...

I published your comments because it represents the many I have gotten that I did not publish. Several times within the debate we have clearly stated that the debate is about worshipping on Sunday. It is not about a sabbath day.

If you have some Biblical proof that worshipping on Sunday is wrong or that in the end times it will be wrong to worship on Sunday or that going to church on Sunday is somehow a line in the sand for Christians, then this is the time to present it.

If you cannot prove biblically that it is wrong to worship on Sunday, or that there will be a time in the future it will be wrong to worship on Sunday--by scripture--then I think it is time for the Adventist church to embrace the full Body of Christ and not stand aloof because other Christians go to church on Sunday.

RyRiBoyz said...

As an ADVENTIST "Never Apologizer"... There is no debate that many churches worshipped on various days! So for me to say that you are wrong for worshipping on Sunday is ridiculous! As an Adventist, I occasionally worship 3-4 times a week, which includes our Small Group Bible Studies. The fact that this debate is NOT about the Sabbath, the Adventist is NOT inspired to debate! Now if you are talking about Sunday being your Sabbath day, then that will branch the Adventist into talking about the Mark of the Beast! If you want to enlighten me about your belief on the Mark of the Beast or direct me for research, then I would be happy to listen!!

Anonymous said...

It is not wrong to worship on Sunday, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, or, Friday.

But, it is wrong to not worship on the Day that God made holy. That is the seventh day. Our Saturday. It's one of the ten commandments. So, what is the argument?

Teresa Beem said...

So an Adventist won't ever debate anything unless they get to set the proposition. Okay.

Remember, however, that it is the Seventh-day Adventist church that teaches an end-time prophecy that the line in the sand for Christians will be on what day you worship.

With THAT in mind this topic is of utter importance to us both--according to the SDA mindset.

If our very salvation will hinge upon what day we worship, and you teach that those worshipping on Sunday will receive the mark of the beast, then please explain to me how worshipping on Sunday for the rest of Christian history isn't wrong, but one day will be?

IF the early church worshipped on Sunday BEFORE Emperor Constantine came to power....

IF 99 + % of Christians worshipped on Sunday for all of Christians history

and today all who call themselves Christians worship on Sunday (again, with extremely minor exceptions)

Please be clear with us out here who do worship on Sunday. Where is there any shred of Biblical evidence that worshipping on Sunday was, is or ever will be a sign of disobedience to God.

This isn't about the Sabbath. We are not claiming, nor has the Catholic church EVER claimed that Sunday is the new 7th day sabbath. It never did. This is a product of Adventist paranoia.

Please stick with the subject at hand. The reason you cannot is because you have zero evidence to substantiate your claim that people who worship on Sunday will receive the mark of the Beast.

If it is God's will for us to worship on Sunday today, what scriptural evidence can you bring to the debate that backs up your prophecy that one day worshipping on Sunday will be against God?

That is your claim. Defend it.

RyRiBoyz said...

OK, we concede that there is NO PROOF that it is wrong to worship on Sunday or any other day!! But that is not the SDA stand. We believe on keeping the Sabbath as God & Jesus kept. Now since we can't talk about the Sabbath on this thread or validity of the Mark of the Beast interpretation, then close this blog thread and move on!!

Teresa Beem said...

RiRyboyz wrote:

"OK, we concede that there is NO PROOF that it is wrong to worship on Sunday or any other day!! But that is not the SDA stand."

Indeed it is. You predict that in the end times those who worship on Sunday will receive the Mark of the Beast.

Therefore, I appreciate your concession. Please let your church know that there is no Biblical proof that it is wrong to worship on Sunday.

Yongaz said...

First of all, I would like to show my appreciation for your candor in allowing for an open debate. Too often people are too quick to judge and point fingers instead of exhibiting Christian love as commanded by our Lord. For that, I thank you. =)

However, in spite of the openness to which you're allowing for this debate, I do not have any intentions of participating for reasons which I will mention shortly. I think it will add further clarity to some of the things that have already been posted here.

"Indeed it is. You predict that in the end times those who worship on Sunday will receive the Mark of the Beast."

Adventists are not really participating in this debate because your "accusation", which I guess can be summarized as above, is effectively incorrect about what Adventists believe.

You continually state that this is NOT about the Sabbath, but rather about Sunday worship and the Mark of the Beast.

In reality, what we believe about the Sabbath, Sunday and the Mark of the Beast are not mutually exclusive. Adventists are not debating because with a premise like this, there's nothing to debate about. As already has been mentioned several times, there is no doubt that Christians worshipped on Sunday (the Bible even says that), and well, it's not just Sunday, but there's no wrong in worshipping on Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday etc.

The issue, if it can be said this way, is with NOT worshipping on Saturday, as we believe it as the biblical Sabbath as the Lord's appointed day. The issue is more so with considering Sunday as THE Sabbath. I would be hard pressed to think that you would find any Adventist who come the end times, who would actually NOT worship on Sunday and decide to go about their normal business with no regard for the Lord so that they “wouldn’t receive the Mark of the Beast, which is worship on Sunday.”

When the trials and tribulations come, I can assure you I'm going to be worshipping Him 24/7, and yes that includes Sunday. However, the fact remains - there is only one Sabbath. That's an argument with which you strive very hard to exclude, but for whatever reasons you have to want to avoid that, the Sabbath, as clearly stated in the Bible from the book of Genesis to the Ten Commandments and time of Jesus and right down to various examples in the books of Acts and other parts of the New Testament, is a symbol of a relationship with our God and the time that He has set aside to make it special. I like to think of it as "Date Night". Does that mean I don't love my spouse any other nights and don't want to spend time with her? No of course not, but hey that's OUR night.

So in essence, there is no debate in that regard. I can't debate when your assumption about me and what I believe in is already inaccurate to begin with.

Arik said...

Your'e not getting the debate you want because you have misrepresented the Adventist position.

The Sabbath is a sign of being sealed with the Holy Ghost, it is not the seal of God per se but rather a sign of being sanctified or a sign of having the seal of God which is sanctification. The mark of the beast is capitulation to a system (false gospel) that man created. We have examples in the Bible that demonstrate the mark of the beast. In Daniel with the three Hebrews who the king by decree were forcing to bow down to the image. The mark of the beast is represented by bowing down. Again in Daniel and again by another decree by the king trying to force Daniel not to worship, the mark of the beast is represented by "standing up" or not kneeling down to worship. In Revelation the issue most certainly is one of worship, but the question is not what day to worship, that's just plain silly, the issue is those that worship God the way He says (represented by those who keep the commandments of God) or will we worship Him according to a false system (representing those that keep the commandments of man).

The Sabbath is the perfect test of loyalty and is no different than the test that Adam and Eve faced in the Garden of Eden. Eve should have just trusted God for the reason that God said "not to eat of the fruit". But Eve listened to the serpent instead because she trusted its word and her own reasoning over the Word of God. The Sabbath is much the same way. Do we think it a little thing for God to request we keep the Sabbath Holy according to the commandment? After all if we listen to the rationalizations (like the serpent to Eve) against keeping the Sabbath holy, it seems like a small thing for God to request. After all we see no moral benefit like we see by keeping the other commandments.

So in the end the seal of God vs the mark of the beast is a test of loyalty. The Sabbath will be sign of those truly sealed by the Spirit. After all any one will be able to say they are sealed, but only those that do the will of the Father, visibly recognized by keeping the Sabbath holy, will be sealed.

Teresa Beem said...

Are you really stating that Adventists DO NOT teach that those worshipping on Sunday at the end of time will receive the mark of the Beast?

Please be clear about that because I can show you over and over that the church does teach this.

I attended SDA elementary, high school and graduated at SWAU an SDA university. This doctrine of worshipping on Sunday being the WRONG day upon which to worship and will be a last day test is at the very core of every single Revelation seminar.

Teresa Beem said...


The issue of Sunday being the Sabbath is not this debate. We will be happy to have that debate at another time. I wrote a book that included ten chapters of how the idea of the Sabbath morphed into an ubiquitous Protestant idea of a New Covenant Sunday Sabbath. I am well aware of this development. But that is not the debate.

For those of us WHO DO NOT teach, nor believe that Sunday is the Sabbath, we find the last day prophecy of Adventists unbiblical.

Since to Catholics and Orthodox and all those out there who do not teach, nor believe that Sunday is the 7th day Sabbath--We agree with you that the weekly Sabbath of Mosaic law IS INDEED the 7th day--what about us?

Will we who go to church on Sunday--not as a sabbath but as the Lord's Day, will WE receive the mark of the beast?

Please prove that scripturally.

Teresa Beem said...


Please show me a plain “thus said the Lord” in Revelation that says the perfect test of loyalty and the sealing is going to church on Sabbath AND not going to church on Sunday.

If you will read the debate you will see that Christians, following the example of Jewish Temple services, have corporate worship every day of the week.

This last day test is a figment of SDA imagination. It is not Biblical. 

What if a Christians in the last days were resting on Sabbath and attending the Lord’s Day Sunday services? Would they receive the Mark of the Beast?

Do you see how the SDA argument is a non-sequitor?

You assume certain things that are not historical or Biblical.

You make the false assumption that the command to rest on Saturday is equivalent to true worship. On so many levels this is a false premise.

Israel was not, as a body, corporately worshipping on the seventh day but RESTING. 

There were only three times a year that Israel was commanded to go to Jerusalem to worship at the Temple--as a body. This was on the three annual sabbaths and they did not occur on a fixed Saturday, but could occur any day of the week even Sunday! 

So SDA assumption of a 7th day corporate worship is not Biblical. The command is to REST. 

So again, I ask Arik, if someone is resting on the 7th day (following the Ten Commandments) and attending corporate worship on SUNDAY as the early church did, will they receive the mark of the beast?

Arik said...

I'm sorry revelation is not explicit enough for you. But I suggest it wouldnt make any difference anyway. The Scripture is explicit only one mediator-you say no. The Scripture is explicit only God has immortality-you say no. Scripture is explicit not to make graven images and again you say no. So I would not expexyou to understand the deeper wisdom of God.

If you want to look at a perfect example of Sabbath keeping I suggest you look to Jesus Himself and not Israel and the temple.

The ten commandments are still binding, despite you're petty arguments to the contrary. And yet when I look at the Catholic catechism I see it also says the ten commandments are still binding. Of course it is the "church's" commandments and not God's, but nonetheless its There. So if you are looking for the test that Rev 13 and 14 speek of, well there you go. It is those who will keep the commandments of God vs those by capitulation will honor the false system.

Your debate should be "does the "church" have the right to change God's law?"

Teresa Beem said...

Every single one of your objections can be answered and are--if you are interested go to Catholic Answers.

But do not try and throw out a number of straw men. Just do this simple thing.

Please point out anywhere in scripture where it was, it is, or it ever will be wrong to go to church on Sunday. Because if your church teaches it will be THE final test--to go to church on Sabbath and those receiving the mark of the beast are those who go to church on Sunday--you better have some really good proof scripturally.

You are condemning the vast majority of all Christians when your church teaches that it is somehow wrong to corporately worship on Sunday.

Please provide scriptural evidence for your doctrine.

Arik said...

The problem is you keep framing the debate in terms of church going. Adventist do not teach church going as the Seal or mark. The debate should be framed in the terms of Revelation 13 and 14. The Seal of God is sanctification, the Sabbath is a sign of being sanctified. It is not to be made out to be Sunday vs Saturday. The question will be who will worship the True God the way He says by His word and be sanctified by it, or who will worship the beast's false Gospel and be condemned. Your "debate" is an ignorant debate because you do not even know the Adventist position.

I did not offer straw man arguments I simply stated that the standard you are setting of show me "thus says the Lord" would be of any use because you do not follow it yourself when indeed Scripture does say " this says the Lord". Thru sophistry anything can be misinterpreted.

So admit you are misrepresenting Adventism ( like I'm your book) and reframe your debate correctly and I'll be happy to show how the Scrupture ties in the Sabbath with Seal of God.

Teresa Beem said...

You wish to reframe it because you have no Biblical evidence to refute the debate point.

I am not at all interested in the Sabbath issue. I totally concede that the Jewish Sabbath is on the 7th day. My church does not teach that Sunday is the Sabbath.

I GO to church on Sabbath (Catholics have mass every day) and I rest on Sabbath (as I rest in Christ every single day) so for Catholics arguing about what day the Sabbath is pointless.

We don't teach Sunday is Sabbath. We agree with you on that point.

Your church prophesies that Christians will one day hunt you down, torture you and try and force you to go to church on Sunday. Those who worship on Sunday will receive the mark of the beast.

Now that is quite a prediction and very strongly against the vast majority of your brother Christians who have for 2,000 years-- always worshipped on Sunday.

That shocking prophecy must be solidly backed up by scripture or you need to jettison it quick!!

It is YOUR church that is wrongly accusing other Christians about a day of worship. You need to back that up with some scriptural evidence....

Where in scripture does it say that one who worships on Sunday will receive the mark of the beast?

Teresa Beem said...

I received this as a response from Yongaz,


Before you think I’m purposely avoiding using Scripture, I think I need to make my point a little clearer. Presuppositions can be a deadly thing; most debates, arguments, fights, wars even… start because of a lack of understanding of each other’s presuppositions. So on that note, I’m going to try and address and clarify further before I even think of going into the debate (if I think we can at all).

You’ve obviously invested a lot of time and effort into this, but I think you’re still missing my point. However, I don’t necessarily fault you per se. Having not grown up in the church and not gone to SDA schools and what not, I may perhaps have a slightly different perspective. I’m not ashamed to admit that I’m an avid and staunch SDA and have been for years, but I do recognize that the SDA church, just like any other denomination is not perfect for the simple reason that we’re all human beings.

Having said that, my point is this – I believe that some SDAs have erred in the sense of communicating an incomplete view of Sunday worship as the mark of the beast.

I mean think about what you’re “accusing” SDAs of here… you’re basically saying that SDAs have this position - “If you worship on Sunday, that means you’ll receive the Mark of the Beast”. Now that statement in and of itself may have been made over and over again, but without the context of the Sabbath, it’s essentially piecemeal folly.

Allow me to clarify further - If SDAs really did make that claim and intended it to be as it is without the context of the Sabbath, then would that not mean that SDAs, by our own admission, are NOT allowed to worship on Sunday? A true Christian, SDA or otherwise, worships God EVERY DAY of the week. I think it would be rather inane (and not to mention unbiblical) to set aside a day where we CAN’T worship God for the simple fear of receiving the mark of the beast. I can’t imagine any preacher or church or whatever who would actually say “Don’t worship God” on any day or context or situation.

It is in this regard that I think SDAs have an “incomplete” presentation of Sunday worship and the mark of the beast, because what you’re accusing us of is something done in isolation of the Sabbath / Sunday message. Then again, I’m sure you recognize that all the Revelation Seminars that you’ve been to cover the Sabbath extensively, meaning that the case for Sunday worship and the mark of the beast is not (and cannot be) presented in isolation from the Sabbath.

Ultimately, I do believe that there will be many non-SDAs in heaven. The prerequisite for salvation is not membership in the SDA church; it’s a relationship with Christ and an acceptance of what He’s done for us at the cross. I’m an SDA because I believe in the remnant mission that the church proclaims… that is certainly biblical, though I won’t go into that here. Regardless, I guess I do, in some ways, agree with the title of your book that it’s probably ok to NOT be a Seventh-day Adventist. It’s not ok however, to not have a biblically based relationship with God, and if I may at the risk of really irking you because of your SDA past, to not keep commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus.

Just from your exchange with Arik, it’s clear that you’ll never agree to the premise to which this debate needs to be centered upon. Likewise, I can’t agree with you on the same token. While I appreciate your desire to debate, we will, as we already have thus far, go around in circles.

You obviously have your beliefs that you’re able to back up biblically, and I have as well, and while a part of me can’t help but surmise that you’ve possibly been very hurt by your experience in the SDA church or by SDAs who do not exhibit the love of Christ as commanded by the Lord Himself, I sincerely pray that we can all be in heaven and settle it once and for all there.

Teresa Beem said...


The SDA premise is that Sunday is the wrong Sabbath. I would agree with that. I do not think Sunday is Sabbath. Therefore any discussion an Adventists would have with me about keeping Sunday as the Sabbath wouldn't go far. I would simply say... I agree the Sabbath is the seventh day!

So why debate something we agree on.

The reason that Adventists cannot debate this is be causes they have a fundamental misunderstanding about resting on Sabbath.

They add to the commandment of "rest" on Sabbath to a corporate assembly.

Why not simply argue that in the last days we should rest on Sabbath. That would be one point where we could actually agree on the premise of the debate. That would be "Is Sabbath keeping a Christian requirement?" That is a good debate topic.

It is the SDA church that then adds something out of the clear blue sky. They have a prophetess that had a vision--that is where they get it because it is not scriptural.

So rather than simply teaching we need to keep Sabbath, they say that in the last days--worship on Sunday will somehow be wrong!

It is the SDA that is mixing the premise of

1. What day do we rest
2. What day can we have a corporate worship service.

You see they are two separate things.

For argument sake, let us say that indeed in the last days we must begin keeping the sabbath rest day on Saturday. And let us say every single Christian does.

Will it still then be wrong to worship on Sunday too and celebrate the Resurrection?

Please answer me that? Can we rest on Sabbath and still worship corporately on Sunday? (As many of the early Eastern Christians did?)

Arik said...

Part 1
"I GO to church on Sabbath (Catholics have mass every day) and I rest on Sabbath (as I rest in Christ every single day) so for Catholics arguing about what day the Sabbath is pointless." -Teresa

"We don't teach Sunday is Sabbath. We agree with you on that point."-Teresa

You see there you go again with "go to church" thing. Sabbath keeping is NOT going to church on Saturday. Sabbath keeping is the sign of entering into God's rest.
So you really need to get that out of your'e head, and because you are stubborn about this, it just shows me you were not an Adventist at all and while an Adventist on the books, you never entered into His Rest.

And yes Catholicism DOES teach that Sunday is the sabbath and that it is binding. Do you read your'e own Catechism?

"Your church prophesies that Christians will one day hunt you down, torture you and try and force you to go to church on Sunday. Those who worship on Sunday will receive the mark of the beast." -Teresa

Wrong again. Read Revelation 13 and 14 and you will clearly see that there will be (future tense) only two classes. Those that keep the commandments (God's not man's) and have the Faith of Jesus Christ Rev 14:12. [Paul says the Just shall LIVE by Faith and Jesus who says we LIVE by every Word that proceeds from the mouth of God, so living by faith is living by God's Word. (not church fathers, not mans opinions and commentaries and magisteriums)]. And on the other side those that worship the beast who incidentally (Rev 13:7) makes war with the Saints and overcomes them.

Arik said...

Part 2
"It is YOUR church that is wrongly accusing other Christians about a day of worship. You need to back that up with some scriptural evidence...." Teresa

It is my Church and my Church's mission to show by example (not just preach) the everlasting Gospel. This Gospel includes obedience to God's Word. Because God's Word is creative and is Power to sanctify us if eaten by faith! You are right that there have been some in my Church who have not represented the Gospel message, but I have no fret, its that way everywhere, besides that is not the test of Truth. We believe that the majority of Christians are worshipping God ignorantly which does not bring condemnation if it is not willful ignorance, but at the same token look in the Bible and you will see that God can not accept ignorant worship. He demands that we worship Him in Spirit and in Truth, because only Truth Sanctifies! I know Catholics who are more Godly than Adventist (unfortunate) at this time we all are a part of the Body of Christ! That is what we teach.

When the everlasting Gospel goes out by way of the Three Angels Message (Rev 14, note it is the very last message given to all the world just before Christ comes) then at this time (not there yet) all will have been given the Truth and will make a choice-Either worship God in Spirit and in Truth (seal of God) or follow the beast to perdition (mark of the beast). It really is that simple.

"Where in scripture does it say that one who worships on Sunday will receive the mark of the beast?"-Teresa

You see how you frame your'e question? This is why a debate with you is fruitless because again that is not what Adventism teaches. What the Bible says is those that do not keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus are those that will receive the mark of the beast. Scripture is clear on that point. The beast must be against God's commandments,and must offer up a false system of worship, after all the entire context is who will you worship? God in Truth or the beast? So the beast is a counterfeit offering up something in place of God's law. Now you should be able to figure out the rest, but if you want me to I will, but I ask again that you stop misrepresenting Adventism and make this debate about what the Bible says instead of "who goes to church on what day?" That's ignorant, especially from someone who boasts was an Adventist.

BTW please forgive all my typos in my last post. I was typing on my smart phone in my work truck. Very difficult.

Yongaz said...

Well there’s nothing to debate on is there? And that’s exactly my point…

Repeating what I’ve said in my previous post, I do not in any way believe that worshipping God on Sunday is wrong. Worshipping on Sunday as the Sabbath and not keeping the biblical Sabbath on the other hand, I believe is.

If your intent is to call out SDAs and even Ellen White for preaching Sunday Worship as the mark of the beast, and therefore we can’t worship God on that day, then you are justified in your argument. ANY Christian, SDA or otherwise who says that you can’t worship God on a particular day is essentially preaching heresy.

However, again, I do not believe that this is what SDAs are preaching at all.

“So rather than simply teaching we need to keep Sabbath, they say that in the last days--worship on Sunday will somehow be wrong!”

I don’t know where you get this from… Every evangelist that I’ve seen ALWAYS preach Sabbath together with Sunday worship in a series.

Anyway I’ve already said that SDAs, well ANY church or Christian for that matter, are not perfect, so inevitably there’ll be more than a few nutcases who preach legalism and doom and gloom without the love of Jesus. God expects spiritual fruit, not religious nuts.

“For argument sake, let us say that indeed in the last days we must begin keeping the sabbath rest day on Saturday. And let us say every single Christian does.

Will it still then be wrong to worship on Sunday too and celebrate the Resurrection?

Please answer me that? Can we rest on Sabbath and still worship corporately on Sunday? (As many of the early Eastern Christians did?)

For the sake of argument, no I don’t believe this is wrong at all. In fact, when the end times and trials and tribulations are in full effect, I’m going to be having corporate worship with my fellow brothers and sisters EVERY moment I get.

One last premise that I just realized we’ve effectively ignored; the mark of the beast isn’t solely about Sunday worship. There’s the mark on the forehead and the hand and the buy and sell aspect. So that’s yet another point which I feel invalidates what you think SDAs really feel about Sunday worship and the mark of the beast.

Teresa Beem said...


I think you are a progressive SDA who does not believe all that the Great Controversy teaches. You do not believe that EGW is the authority. So, good! God bless you and I am glad God is using you within the SDA church to bring her into more full understanding of the gospel.

Teresa Beem said...


You wrote:

"Where in scripture does it say that one who worships on Sunday will receive the mark of the beast?"-Teresa

You see how you frame your'e question? This is why a debate with you is fruitless because again that is not what Adventism teaches.

I respond:

Ellen White's Great Controversy vision says this:

While the worshipers of God will be especially distinguished by their regard for the fourth commandment,—since this is the sign of His creative power and the witness to His claim upon man’s reverence and homage,—the worshipers of the beast will be distinguished by their efforts to tear down the Creator’s memorial, to exalt the institution of Rome. It was in behalf of the Sunday that popery first asserted its arrogant claims (see Appendix); and its first resort to the power of the state was to compel the observance of Sunday as “the Lord’s day.” But the Bible points to the seventh day, and not to the first, as the Lord’s day. GC 446.3

What then is the change of the Sabbath, but the sign, or mark, of the authority of the Roman Church—“the mark of the beast? GC 448

But Christians of past generations observed the Sunday, supposing that in so doing they were keeping the Bible Sabbath.... But when Sunday observance shall be enforced by law, and the world shall be enlightened concerning the obligation of the true Sabbath, then whoever shall transgress the command of God ....He is worshiping the beast and his image. As men then reject the institution which God has declared to be the sign of His authority, and honor in its stead that which Rome has chosen as the token of her supremacy, they will thereby accept the sign of allegiance to Rome—“the mark of the beast.” And it is not until the issue is thus plainly set before the people, and they are brought to choose between the commandments of God and the commandments of men, that those who continue in transgression will receive “the mark of the beast. GC 449

Clearly Ellen White says that Sunday IS going to be, after a Sunday Law--the mark of the beast. It is clearly setting up one day of the week as the right day to "observe" over another.

This is what the SDA church teaches. Please provide Biblical proof of this vision that "observing" Sunday will one day be sinful or wrong.

Teresa Beem said...

More quotes from Ellen:

... this prophecy will be fulfilled when the United States shall enforce Sunday observance ....and all the world wondered after the beast. ... In both the Old and the New World, the papacy will receive homage in the honor paid to the Sunday institution, that rests solely upon the authority of the Roman Church. GC 578.3

The Sabbath will be the great test of loyalty ... then the line of distinction will be drawn between those who serve God and those who serve Him not. While the observance of the false sabbath in compliance with the law of the state, contrary to the fourth commandment, will be an avowal of allegiance to a power that is in opposition to God, the keeping of the true Sabbath, in obedience to God’s law, is an evidence of loyalty to the Creator. While one class, by accepting the sign of submission to earthly powers, receive the mark of the beast, the other choosing the token of allegiance to divine authority, receive the seal of God GC 605.2

This is the test that the people of God must have before they are sealed. All who proved their loyalty to God by observing His law, and refusing to accept a spurious sabbath, will rank under the banner of the Lord God Jehovah, and will receive the seal of the living God. Those who yield the truth of heavenly origin and accept the Sunday sabbath, will receive the mark of the beast (Letter 11, 1890) 7BC 976.3

Teresa Beem said...

AND more Ellen:

History will be repeated. False religion will be exalted. The first day of the week, a common working day, possessing no sanctity whatever, will be set up as was the image at Babylon. All nations and tongues and peoples will be commanded to worship this spurious sabbath. 7BC 976.7

Trial and persecution will come to all who, in obedience to the Word of God, refuse to worship this false sabbath. Force is the last resort of every false religion. At first it tries attraction, as the king of Babylon tried the power of music and outward show. If these attractions, invented by men inspired by Satan, failed to make men worship the image, the hungry flames of the furnace were ready to consume them. So it will be now. The papacy has exercised her power to compel men to obey her, and she will continue to do so. We need the same spirit that was manifested by God’s servants in the conflict with paganism. (The Signs of the Times, May 6, 1897). 7BC 976.9

Not a move has been made in exalting the idol sabbath, in bringing around Sunday observance through legislation, but Satan has been behind it, and has been the chief worker; but the conscience should not be compelled even for the observance of the genuine Sabbath, for God will accept only willing service (The Review and Herald, April 15, 1890). 7BC 977.1

The Law of God Made Void—A time is coming when the law of God is, in a special sense, to be made void in our land. The rulers of our nation will, by legislative enactments, enforce the Sunday law, and thus God’s people be brought into great peril. When our nation, in its legislative councils, shall enact laws to bind the consciences of men in regard to their religious privileges, enforcing Sunday observance, and bringing oppressive power to bear against those who keep the seventh-day Sabbath, the law of God will, to all intents and purposes, be made void in our land; and national apostasy will be followed by national ruin (The Review and Herald, December 18, 1888). 7BC 977.2

Teresa Beem said...

We are living in a momentous period of this earth’s history. The great conflict is just before us. We see the world corrupted under the inhabitants thereof. The man of sin has worked with a marvelous perseverance to exalt the spurious sabbath, and the disloyal Protestant world has wondered after the beast, and has called obedience to the Sabbath instituted by Jehovah disloyalty to the laws of the nations. Kingdoms have confederated to sustain a false sabbath institution, which has not a word of authority in the oracles of God (The Review and Herald, February 6, 1900). 7BC 977.6


The Sabbath question is to be the issue in the great final conflict, in which all the world will act a part. Men have honored Satan’s principles above the principles that rule in the heavens. They have accepted the spurious sabbath, which Satan has exalted as the sign of his authority. But God has set His seal upon His royal requirement. Each Sabbath institution, both true and false, bears the name of its author, an ineffaceable mark that shows the authority of each.
The great decision now to be made by every one is, whether he will receive the mark of the beast and his image, or the seal of the living and true God (The Signs of the Times, March 22, 1910) 7BC 977.8

I think we can safely say that Ellen made the argument about worshipping on Sunday.

Arik said...

I do not appreciate you not posting all That I wrote. This is not the way to conduct a debate. Jesus faced His enemies with truth and never misrepresented their position.

If you had posted what I wrote EGW's quotes would have harmonized with mine. And if you notice not one of her quotes puts the end time scenario as merely what day to go to church. And you have not quoted all she has to say about the seal and the mark so again you set the context in you're paradigm instead of what it really is. If This method is not the Spirit of God, then there is only one alternative left.

Please post all That I wrote and be honest if you can. And stop saying the church doesn't teach That Sunday is the Sabbath. It most certainly does, do you read you're own catechism? Or ate you calling yourself Catholic like you did with SDA and not know what t.hey teach?

Teresa Beem said...

I posted all that you wrote, I was just responding to a part of what you wrote in my reply.

I don't have the space to post the entire Great Controversy, but people have that available to them at Ellen White Writings.

I wanted to show that Ellen did indeed make a big deal about the day...

Yongaz said...

"I think you are a progressive SDA who does not believe all that the Great Controversy teaches. You do not believe that EGW is the authority. So, good! God bless you and I am glad God is using you within the SDA church to bring her into more full understanding of the gospel."

Not sure what you mean by progressive SDA... but I do believe ALL that the Great Controversy teaches, and I DO believe EGW's authority. I do believe in context, and 99% of the issues that arise out of Ellen White is because of a lack of context.

Anyway it appears (sorry if I’m unfairly categorizing you here!) that you have a very fixed mindset of what SDAs are and should be, and I have a feeling you're talking about the "ultra-conservatives", for a lack of better term. This may have been due to your upbringing or your experience in the SDA environment or whatever, and the major pervading force and influence appears to be those who quote "Sister White" in every sentence instead of the Bible. That seems to be the group that you continually categorize as “SDA”.

To me, that's not what a Bible-based SDA truly is. Ellen White would be appalled if she knew that she was being quoted more than the Bible... I quote Ellen White almost every time I preach, but that’s only to support a point that has already been clearly made and elucidated in Scripture.

Anyway that’s not what we’re discussing here, but I just wanted to point out that there are PLENTY of SDAs, especially in church leadership who hold the same view that I do.

Thank you though once again for at least being willing to have an amiable discussion about the matter, but ultimately if you’re “targeting” the “ultra-conservatives” that I described above, then I’m almost ready to support entirely you in that regard. God bless. =)

Teresa Beem said...

I am not targeting anyone. I am asking for a fair and open debate about the SDA last day prophecy.

I was raised as a very progressive SDA. I never believed that Ellen White was an infallible prophetess, even when raised in SDA institutions from elementary to University level.

Ellen White is considered an authority for the SDA church and her writings in the Great Controversy lay out the church's last day prophecies.

It is very clearly laid out in the Great Controversy and in SDA church doctrine that in the last days the "false worship" that gives people the mark of the beast is the rejecting the Sabbath commandment and going to corporate worship services on Sunday.

Please show me where I have the SDA position wrong, because I just posted quote after quote of Ellen where she says this. Go to the original and show me where I have taken her out of context for I haven't.

This is the last day prophecy--the THREE ANGELS" MESSAGE upon with Adventism rests. It is all about keeping SAbbath as a rest--according to SDA criteria--which is corporate worship.

Arik said...

At least this time you have mentioned the Sabbath commandment, but you are still misrepresenting the Adventist position.

Sabbath keeping is not "corporate worship". So nice try but you really make it hard for me to believe you were an Adventist.

The Sabbath is a sign of entering into God's rest. The end time scenario of Revelation depicts two groups of people, those that Worship God and those the worship the beast. It's all about who is worshiped not what day. The evidence of who is worshiped will manifest itself by what commandments the two parties will be loyal to. One one hand the sealed will be keeping God's commandments (Rev 14:12) and on the other hand the beast will keep the commandments of the beast (Rev 13:7,8,12,16,17).

You're church teaches that the first day is the sabbath (read your catechism) the bible teaches its the seventh day). Rephrase you're debate and we can move on.

Yongaz said...

The only way to address some of these statements is to discuss context. However, this will seem like a cop out (so my apologies), but it’s almost next to impossible to have a debate about context online… it’s just too time consuming, and 80% of it will go back and forth mainly because of different presuppositions that are not recognized by either party.

Case in point – I seem to have misunderstood what you’re trying to say about the very premise of this debate because you’ve just said this:

“It is very clearly laid out in the Great Controversy and in SDA church doctrine that in the last days the "false worship" that gives people the mark of the beast is the rejecting the Sabbath commandment and going to corporate worship services on Sunday.”

I definitely agree with this statement, and yet, your previous stand was the continual insistence of the exclusion of the Sabbath in this debate, which is something I’ve tried to “argue” against from the start. The Sabbath and the Mark of the Beast and Sunday worship are not mutually exclusive and they cannot be separated in any discussion if one is to be fair to the SDA side. I say this because the entire premise of the debate on Sunday and the Mark of the Beast IS the Sabbath. Take that out, and there’s nothing to talk about anymore, at least not from the SDA side.

I’m guessing the gist of the responses that you’ve gotten is simply because of this separation; Christians meeting and worshipping on Sunday is both a historical AND biblical fact. There is nothing to debate based on that premise. The matter that is most significant to me as an SDA is the rejection of the Sabbath; that’s the issue at the forefront.

To me, it appeared quite clearly that what you were “accusing” SDAs or Ellen White of was that anyone who partakes in corporate worship on Sunday will automatically receive the mark of the beast, without wanting to discuss the Sabbath at all. Again, that’s just too simplistic a statement to make about such a huge topic. That’s my issue with the premise of the debate here, and that’s what I’ve been trying to establish thus far.

My apologies for having unfairly categorized you as targeting anyone (and my gazillion typos from my last post which was typed waaaay past my bedtime), but from what I understand, you and I seem to essentially have similar beliefs, which is not too different from a lot of Adventists I know. The only group that you appear to have an issue with, and whom I think you continually lump in with ALL SDAs, are the ultra-conservatives. I’m not saying that was intentional; I’m merely trying to point out that SDAs are A LOT more that you appear to be suggesting here.

Teresa Beem said...

You have just made plain the fallacies of the SDA argument.

1. You believe that Catholics teach Sunday is the Sabbath. That is not true nor never was. That is an SDA myth.

The early church taught that Sunday was the fulfillment of the 1st/8th day symbol. It's official doctrine has always been that Sunday is the NEW Covenant day of celebration of Christ's resurrection.

Sunday isn't the Jewish sabbath, nor any sabbath. This is how you misrepresent what I believe and my church teaches.

Here it is, straight from the Catholic Catechsim:

Jesus rose from the dead "on the first day of the week."Because it is the "first day," the day of Christ's Resurrection recalls the first creation. Because it is the "eighth day" following the sabbath, it symbolizes the new creation ushered in by Christ's Resurrection. For Christians it has become the first of all days, the first of all feasts, the Lord's Day (he kuriake hemera, dies dominica)—Sunday:

We all gather on the day of the sun, for it is the first day [after the Jewish sabbath, but also the first day] when God, separating matter from darkness, made the world; and on this same day Jesus Christ our Savior rose from the dead.

Sunday—fulfillment of the sabbath

Sunday is expressly distinguished from the sabbath which it follows chronologically every week; for Christians its ceremonial observance replaces that of the sabbath. In Christ's Passover, Sunday fulfills the spiritual truth of the Jewish sabbath and announces man's eternal rest in God. For worship under the Law prepared for the mystery of Christ, and what was done there prefigured some aspects of Christ:

Those who lived according to the old order of things have come to a new hope, no longer keeping the sabbath, but the Lord's Day, in which our life is blessed by him and by his death.


This is where you and your church totally misrepresent Catholics. We call Sunday a holy day of obligation--NOT because it harkens back to Sabbath, but because it is the celebration of the day Christ was resurrected and inaugurates the New Covenant.

Sunday was never "the Sabbath" for Catholics--NEVER. Some Catholic scholars tried to fight to make it an official doctrine of the church. And much of what the SDA church publishes as "official" isn't at all.

Even Pope Gregory and St. Augustine and St. Jerome argued back and forth about whether Sunday was the New Sabbath, but the church has consistently maintained that Sabbath was the 7th day and Sunday was the FIRST day. Both have Biblical evidence to support them.

The church rejected attempts to make Sunday a "sabbath." So please, for accuracy sake, do not accuse the Catholic church of making Sunday "Sabbath" because you will never find any official ecumenical document that says such a thing.

All you can find are local papers or personal opinions. Even the pope himself can say something is so, without making it an official Catholic doctrine--as I said Pope Gregory's opinion was that Sunday was the New Sabbath, but that was never ratified as a doctrine.

Sunday replaced Sabbath just as the New Covenant replaced the old. Just as the first day follows the seventh, it doesn't make the first the seventh day. It is different.

Okay having explained that:

What I am asking to the Adventists is--for those who DO NOT believe Sunday is the Sabbath. Are you then saying that at long as we REST on Sabbath we can worship God corporately on Sunday--since we don't see it as a Sabbath?

Teresa Beem said...


You are not a traditional Adventist--nor was our entire church that I grew up in (as a matter of fact, Adventists who believe what Adventism actually teaches on the books is becoming rather rare! Which is a very good thing!! I commend them greatly.)

But I am looking directly at the teaching of the church and asking anyone who DOES believe that the those who corporately worship on Sunday will receive the mark of the beast, in the last days to please back that up biblically.

There were those in the early church, Yongaz, in the eastern part of Christendom, who kept Sabbath but also went to church on Sunday.

Let us, for clarity sake, say that ALL Christians return to that practice. They rest on Sabbath and worship on Sunday.

Will those who keep the Sabbath AND corporately worship on Sunday receive the mark of the beast?

This is a vital question to answer as it clarifies where the SDA church gets is totally wrong.

The White end-time scenario presupposes that Christians believe and keep Sunday as the Sabbath. This is a false premise for many Protestants and for ALL Catholics and Orthodox.

Ellen's prophecy was reaction to the Sabbatarian fights of the 16th century Reformers. Over the next century there were dozens and dozens of books/pamphlets published (mainly by Calvinists--puritans, separatists, etc.) who argued whether Saturday or Sunday is the Sabbath.

This is the root of the Rachel Oaks presentation to the early Adventists (I think it was Uriah Smith?). This was a huge topic in New England, because there were cities in which Sunday laws were VERY harsh. There are stories of men being put in the stocks for hours for kissing their wives publicly on Sabbath (Sunday.)

Other groups argued that if you go back to scripture Saturday is Sabbath and so Sunday laws are oppressive.

NONE of this was Catholic/Orthodox based--but Protestant based.

"I say this because the entire premise of the debate on Sunday and the Mark of the Beast IS the Sabbath. Take that out, and there’s nothing to talk about anymore, at least not from the SDA side."

Teresa Beem said...

So, Adventists need to be clear. What they need to say--IF they actually believe that Sabbath keeping is going to be a last day test.

1. Clarify that Saturday is Sabbath--not Sunday. The vast majority of Christians today will agree with you.

2. Teach that indeed Sabbath WILL be a necessary observance for Christians based upon Rev. 14. (The SDAs will then have to prove that the commandments John says we must keep are the Ten Commandments.)

3. DROP the Sunday as the false sabbath thing. There is nothing in Christian history nor the scripture that says Sunday is a false sabbath. Whether a person or group or anyone claims it is so, that doesn't make that person a sinner or a worshipper of a false God. It just makes them wrong. Quit putting false fences up against your brothers and sisters in Christ.

I have no problem with Adventists teaching that Saturday is Sabbath! We are going to disagree that in the New Covenant the 7th day Sabbath is a requirement. But if your interpretation of scripture is that it is still required, preach it and then allow people to lovingly disagree.

Catholics, for 2000 years have gone to church everyday of the week (had services anyway--most only show up to the Lord's Day mass). Every single day they worship Christ--just as the Jews had services at the temple DAILY!! (Acts 2:46) We do not teach that Adventists align themselves with the antichrist because they still keep the Old Covenant Sabbath.

I am for Christians uniting, as Christ commanded. (ALSO a commandment, by the way. John might have been speaking of that commandment when he said the remnant are those who keep my commandments--there is no proof he was pointing to the Ten! Jesus gave lots of new commandments while on earth. We have to keep them too!)

We--Adventists, Catholics, Protestants, etc.--we can never unite and show the world God's love until we quit misrepresenting each other and break down illogical, unbiblical and offensive walls that separate us.

Positioning the Catholic and Apostate Protestants as the antiChrist and Sunday as the false day of worship is keeping YOU from uniting with the Body of Christ!!

No one cares if you keep Sabbath--no one cares if Adventists PREACH to keep the Sabbath. That is your interpretation of scripture--God bless you and follow your conscience on that.

But characterizing the rest of Christianity as wrong for doing what ALL Christians--including the Apostles did--worshipping corporately on Sunday--as the "false sabbath" is truly against Christ.

Please show us exactly where in scripture Sunday is clearly portrayed as a false sabbath.

What you are in essence telling the world is that although there is no precedence, no explicit scripture, no historical Christian teaching to back you up, suddenly out of nowhere, in the last days it will be wrong to worship on Sunday because it will be revealed that it is the false sabbath.

In the end, you are asking everyone in Christendom to take Ellen's word for it, for she was the prophetess given this Third Angel's Message. It all come down to SDA interpretation of the 3 Angel' Message.

Do not condemn your brothers and the Body of Christ as worshipping wrongly without a distinct "thus said the Lord" --NOT from Ellen, but from scripture itself. For that is a terrible thing to do to your brother in Christ.

Arik said...

The catechism of the Catholic church explains that the ten commandments are obligatory (2068). When it lists the Sabbath commandment it explains "for Christians it's ceremonial observance (Sunday) replaces that of the Sabbath" (2068). And then it says:

2184 Just as God "rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had done,"121 human life has a rhythm of work and rest. the institution of the Lord's Day helps everyone enjoy adequate rest and leisure to cultivate their familial, cultural, social, and religious lives.122

2185 On Sundays and other holy days of obligation, the faithful are to refrain from engaging in work or activities that hinder the worship owed to God, the joy proper to the Lord's Day, the performance of the works of mercy, and the appropriate relaxation of mind and body.123 Family needs or important social service can legitimately excuse from the obligation of Sunday rest. the faithful should see to it that legitimate excuses do not lead to habits prejudicial to religion, family life, and health.

So you see it calls Sunday an obligatory day of rest (sabbath) and counts as law (3rd commandment). So now we are closer to understanding the Seal of God and mark of the beast.

Teresa Beem said...


Again, you have to understand the Old and New Covenant.

I think that seems to be the hardest thing for Adventists to comprehend. The Old law was REPLACED by the New law.

The New law ISN"T the Old law.

The SDA church says because Sunday replaces sabbath that Sunday is a "Sabbath." Again if you read all of what the Catechism says it CLEARLY distinguishes the Sabbath from Sunday.

The first day comes AFTER --when the sun rises it is a NEW day, the first replaces the seventh in a weekly cycle it doesn't BECOME the seventh day. This is a very important distinction.

The law of God is that before you are married, you are not allowed to have sexual intercourse with your fiancé.

That law is REPLACED when you are married to a command to go and multiply and become one. The first law isn't the second, but it is a better one.

The Catholic church teaches that the Ten Commandment are the starting point--JUST LIKE CHRIST DID! He takes the old and remakes them into the new. JUST LIKE THE CATHOLIC CHURCH DOES.

You take the old--

"You have heard it said, you must not commit adultery" that is the old. Jesus then builds upon it with the NEW COVENANT commandments. "BUT I SAY" that "but I say makes all the difference. BUT JESUS SAYS you shouldn't even lust. Jesus takes authority over the Old and makes the new FROM it.

He uses the same moral ideas and reforms them.

Even though the church officially takes the stand that there are no DOGMATIC new Sabbath days--in other words they teach that Jesus became our sabbath rest and ALL days are now the same.

The church has the right to state that, for the life of the church, we are going to have one day a week of holy obligation. They chose Sunday BECAUSE of the resurrection, not as a new Sabbath but as a FIRST DAY. There is plenty of Biblical precedence for a Sunday assembly and since the Apostles did it, then why not do it too!

They also recognize, in the spirit of the Ten commandments, there was a natural rhythm of time that it is good for man to rest.

But again, this is not a dogmatic statement. The church thoroughly recognizes that they arbitrarily chose certain holy days of obligation, but they can change them at any time. They are not dogma or even doctrine. There is a third category of teaching that is called church discipline. You are asked to do it for the health of the church sake. But it is not a dogma or doctrine.

The Ten Commandments are in this last category. The church uses the Ten Commandments EXACTLY like Christ as a springboard to explain the NEW Covenant.

I assure you all this can be confusing even to a Catholic. But the church has never officially dogmatically or doctrinally taught that Sabbath is Sunday.

For the first seven centuries this idea of a Sunday "Sabbath" was argued back and forth in pockets of scholars--not all the time, the idea just kept resurfacing, and in the end, after each cycle of debate the church chose to keep the original teaching of the disciples that Sunday is a first/eighth day NEW Covenant holy day that replaced and fulfilled the Jewish Sabbath.

This has lots of Biblical support.

If the early church had wanted Sunday to be the new Sabbath they would have CALLED it Sabbath. But they didn't. They called Saturday Sabbath and Sunday "The Lord's Day." They remained two distinct days. That is why today in most latinized areas we have a cognate of the Latin word Sabbath for Saturday and a cognate for the Latin word "the Lord's Day" for Sunday.

Arik said...

I think now we are getting somewhere. You're church can not say it follows the commandments of God as shown by those that receive the Seal of God (Rev 14:12), because not one place did God command Sunday as the new day of rest.

Just like you're catechism states that the ten commandments are still obligatory and that "The Ten Commandments state what is required in the love of God and love of neighbor ..."(2067), as an Adventist we recognize this too. However recognizing that God is love and cannot change, and His commandments are "what is required in the love of God and love of neighbor" it is fundamentally impossible for any of the commandments to change. It is like changeing the character of God Himself!

I maintain that the Catholic church has no right to prop up a false day of rest (sabbath) at the expense of the Seventh Day Sabbath. And now we see the issue of the Seal of God and the mark of the beast. Those that keep the commandments of God and those who keep the commandments of men.

If you want to "go to church" on Sunday be my guest, but the "church" teaches by its own catechism that Sunday is the new day of rest and for that there absolutely is no biblical support.

Teresa Beem said...


Your premise again is not correct. The Catholics do not teach Sunday as a Sabbath.

Read my step by step refutation of the Adventist Revelation Today seminar that is the newest post. That should help you understand more of the Catholic position.

Arik said...

Give me a break Teresa, the catechism states the Ten Commandments are obligatory, it states Sunday replaced the 7th Sabbath day, It calls Sunday a day a rest, and it calls Christians to refrain from working on it. And now you want to tell me "Catholics do not teach Sunday as a Sabbath?" Are you sure you are a Catholic?

7. The DUTY TO KEEP SUNDAY HOLY, especially by sharing in the Eucharist and by relaxing in a spirit of Christian joy and fraternity, is easily understood if we consider the many different aspects of this day upon which the present Letter will focus our attention.
Dies Domini

25. In effect, Sunday is the day above all other days which summons Christians TO REMEMBER the salvation which was given to them in baptism and which has made them new in Christ. Dies Domini

The Code of CANON LAW of 1917 for the first time gathered this tradition into a UNIVERSAL LAW.(81) The present Code reiterates this, saying that "on Sundays and other holy days of obligation the faithful are BOUND to attend Mass".(82) This legislation has normally been understood as entailing a grave obligation: this is the teaching of the Catechism of the Catholic Church,(83) and it is easy to understand why if we keep in mind how VITAL Sunday is for the Christian life. Dies Dimini

So lets recap: Ten Commandments obligatory,
Sunday replaced 7th Day Sabbath, called a day of rest, A DUTY TO KEEP HOLY, Called to REMEMBER, and Part of Canon LAW.

Sunday has all the elements of the events Day Sabbath, so you can not maintain the position that Sunday is not taught as a Sabbath.

So we really showing by this debate exactly the issue of the Seal of God and the mark of the Beast. Uphold God's law which includes the Sabbath Commandment, or uphold the "Church's" law which includes the false Sabbath.

Teresa Beem said...


You wrote: "Give me a break Teresa, the catechism states the Ten Commandments are obligatory, it states Sunday replaced the 7th Sabbath day, It calls Sunday a day a rest, and it calls Christians to refrain from working on it. And now you want to tell me "Catholics do not teach Sunday as a Sabbath?" Are you sure you are a Catholic? "

I can see where that would be confusing to an Adventists, because you do not understand how the NEW Covenant replaced the Old Covenant and although they look very similar they are not the same.

Again look at the words of Jesus. Jesus wasn't getting RID of the Ten Commandments--they are still the seeds of the New Covenant but they are perfected through the Cross of Jesus as they become the NEW Covenant.

The New Covenant is expanded. I don't know how to explain this to you. If you can't see it, you can't see it.

But put very simply, lets go back to the Bible.

The Apostles and early Christians met together to worship daily--including Sunday. (Acts. 2: 46)

Paul says there are no more required sabbaths. And that we can keep a Sabbath if we are so inclined, but it is not obligatory.

There are only TWO things in all scripture that the Apostles tell us to make up our own mind about, that there are no hard and fast rules.... and that is eating meat and sabbath days.

That should be all it takes to convince any Christians that they do not have to worry about any Mark of the Beast for going to church on Sunday. That is not biblical.

Yongaz said...

But I am looking directly at the teaching of the church and asking anyone who DOES believe that the those who corporately worship on Sunday will receive the mark of the beast, in the last days to please back that up biblically.

I don’t believe you can. Maybe that classifies me as a non-traditional Adventist… which is why I said that you and I have similar beliefs. However, again, I certainly don’t believe that what you’re calling “traditional Adventist beliefs” is what the church officially teaches.

Why? Well consider the question you’re asking…

Will those who keep the Sabbath AND corporately worship on Sunday receive the mark of the beast?

As I’ve said, no I don’t believe so. Repeating myself here – those who really believe this is pretty much saying that they won’t and can’t worship God on Sunday. I don’t see how a true Christian would actually say this in any way shape or form. I really don’t think a logical, sensible and biblically sound SDA Christian would make such a claim. I’ve certainly never seen any SDAs make that claim (at least not outrightly) in the 15 or so years that I’ve been in the church. They may have made statements about corporate worship on Sunday leading to the mark of the beast (I know I certainly have), but it’s always been in the context of the Sabbath and definitely not independent of it.

I mean if someone really did make that claim, as in “worshipping God on Sunday means that you definitely WILL get the Mark of the Beast (it doesn’t matter even if you were keeping the Sabbath)”, then like I said, my question would be – “Are you telling me I can’t worship God on Sunday at all? What am I supposed to do if my family wants to have family worship? Do I have to give that up too?”

I won’t even bother getting into a debate to prove it biblically… pure common sense will tell you that it’s illogical to make such a claim. If your intentions (and I apologize for continually trying to surmise what they might be) are to point that out, then I definitely agree with you. What I still do not agree with (and I guess we probably never will based on our discussion thus far) is that I don’t think in any way shape or form that this is the official SDA stand. It’s my experience against yours… my.. I suppose interpretation of what the church believes against yours, so we’ll just have to agree to disagree. I’ll certainly be more aware of this and will probably end up asking around. If people do really make such a claim, then I’ll simply ask them what I’ve just said in the previous paragraph.

FYI I studied at the Seminary in Andrews University and was actually considering doing a phD (a couple of my professors really thought I should); I’m mentioning this only to let you know that I’m well aware of how the church works; I’ve met and talked extensively with our core theologians and SDA world leaders and I’m also well aware of early church history as well as Adventist history and how the Sabbath came about (and even church politics). I hesitated in mentioning this because of concerns of how this may come across, that I’m flaunting my credentials and experience etc. (which is why I’ve never mentioned it up to now). However I decided to go ahead anyway so I hope it comes across amiably because I don’t want to be seen as purposely avoiding going into the actual material and content so to speak due to ignorance or lack of information or that I can’t back things up and therefore conceding or avoiding the argument. =)

Also, I have not read all of your discourse with Arik thus far so my comments are independent of that conversation.

Teresa Beem said...

If Andrews University doesn't teach that those who corporately worship on Sunday in the last days receive the mark of the beast, then I am all joy and wishing you godspeed. That is wonderful that you are not being taught to discriminate against your fellow brothers and sisters in Christ. We should all be marveling at God's grace to the SDA church. (And I truly mean that... )

However, at the moment I am watching the ongoing It Is Written series of meetings in Los Vegas by John Bradshaw called Revelation Today.

I am assuming that this is a church sponsored event. If you go online you can download the programs and the last one he preached was about the Catholic church plot to change the Sabbath to Sunday. And it reiterated all the old arguments that are historically inaccurate.

Some of the things Bradshaw said were blatantly misleading. I pray he is innocently repeating the lies he has been told and not deliberatley telling falsehoods. I will assume he is a godly man and is just catastrophically misinformed.

But the entire tone, format and information presented at the Revelation Today seminar seems to be much of what the church has always taught. They set up the Catholic Church as the Whore of Babylon, the pope as the antichrist, the Sabbath as the last day test for Christians, the Adventists as the sole remnant who bring to the world the final "everlasting gospel" and ...

I am sure the next few sessions will tell us that all who worship on Sunday (in the last days) will ram through an universal Sunday law and as we Catholics twist our mustaches and proceed with our sinister plot based on our whorish idolatry to hunt Adventists down and torture them for not worshipping on the pagan sabbath.... is coming next...

It is sad, because in the meantime a true persecutions is happening to Christians all over the world. Not based on a day of worship but WHO we worship.

I pray that Sabbatarians and those who choose to worship all days will come together and join as Christians in love that the wold will see who Christ really is.

God bless you Yongaz and your ministry of light. Keep the light shining in Adventism! I'll do what I can in Catholicism!!

Arik said...

Teresa you are still being deceptive by presenting to the world that the Adventist church teaches that choosing to simply gather to worship God on Sunday will condemn them. But you are falsely accusing your brethren and are using the tools of Satan himself.

I am willing to bet that most Catholics (including you) are not even aware that the Catholic church has propped up a sabbath day much in every way the Lord has commanded His Sabbath day to be observed. Sunday is you're holy day, Sunday is you're day of rest, Sunday is you're Sabbath! According to you're teaching a Catholic who attends church on Sunday and comes home and washes the car, paints the house and decides to fix the boat is breaking the sanctity of Sunday. So even in Catholicism Sunday keeping is not merely coming to church on Sunday.

So you need to stop making this debate out to be simply what day we will go to church. It has everything to do with who's rest will we enter into? Who's law (Rev 14) will we allow to be written into our hearts (new covenant, same law).

What you miss about covenants is that once the testator dies the testament (covenant) can not change. It matters not what happened after Christ died, the covenant is sealed by His blood, and He did not command a new Sabbath or a new law or a new Gospel. Adventist recognize that the Gospel in the NT is exactly the same Gospel of the OT. Salvation was always by grace (never ever law) through faith! Read Hebrews 11, and Galatians for starters.

Teresa Beem said...

Arik, the debate isn't even about the Sabbath, so I am not being in any way deceptive. I am asking a question that the early Christians had and seeing how Adventists could answer the question.

If early Christians all celebrated Sunday, and some of them actually kept Sabbath on Saturday. How does this fit into Ellen's last day prophecy.

You have yet to answer the question.

Arik said...

You mean the debate isn't about merely what day you go to church to worship God, which is the way you framed this debate.

"Worshipping on Sunday will never be a sign of disobedience to God’s laws nor will those who worship on Sunday receive the Mark of the Beast." Teresa

True, the last day events are not about what day to worship God, it has everything to do with who's commandments we will follow. Who's law will be written in our hearts.

As I have shown there is God's ten commandments, and there is the church's ten commandments. There is God's 7th day Sabbath and there is the "church's" 1st day sabbath. And now we see there is a clear line drawn between the two sides!

So the sooner you admit that the two opposing side is that one stands for God's law which includes the Seventh Day Sabbath and one stands for the "church's" law which includes the first day sabbath, then we can have a fair and accurate debate.

Yongaz said...

If Andrews University doesn't teach that those who corporately worship on Sunday in the last days receive the mark of the beast, then I am all joy and wishing you godspeed

I suppose we’ve pretty much reached an impasse, and while I know what you’re implying here, this statement in and of itself isn’t accurate… so please don’t quote me as having said this in this current / exact form. =)

But the entire tone, format and information presented at the Revelation Today seminar seems to be much of what the church has always taught. They set up the Catholic Church as the Whore of Babylon, the pope as the antichrist, the Sabbath as the last day test for Christians, the Adventists as the sole remnant who bring to the world the final "everlasting gospel" and…

I won’t get into this since this is not the premise of the debate, but it appears that our opinions are as different as they are similar, if that make sense.

God bless you Yongaz and your ministry of light. Keep the light shining in Adventism! I'll do what I can in Catholicism!!

I wouldn’t call mine a ministry of light… and again, I know what you’re implying, but I do not agree with the sentiment that I’m the light in the darkness (by implication) that is known as Adventism. I do know that there that are many things wrong with Adventism simply because the church is made up of people, and people are… well, human, and humans make mistakes.

Nevertheless, this doesn’t mean I don’t believe in a remnant mission, purpose and people (as opposed to a denomination) that will carry forth the message of Jesus’ soon coming in the clouds of glory.

It’s been a cordial discussion and you’ve been very respectful to me; I hope I’ve extended the same courtesy. Forgive me (and my fellow SDAs) if we’ve come across as holier-than-thou because that seems to be the pervading thought of too many people. While I believe some of these responses are warranted, most are not. Anyway I’ll leave it at that… God bless! =)

Teresa Beem said...

Back at you Yongaz, believe me I wasn't meaning anything about Adventist darkness when I said keep being the light. The WHOLE WORLD is fading into a night right now. I think the world of the Catholic Church--in fact I am totally smitten, so I wouldn't have said she was in darkness and I would be the light. Just wanted to clear that up before you leave....

Thanks for the discussion and God bless you and keep you, Teresa

rhb_3000 said...

are you excepting any more posts/comments?

Teresa Beem said...

Sure! Absolutely.
Often my readers think when they first send a comment, because it doesn't automatically pop up then the post is closed for comments or that something is wrong.

Actually when I first opened up a blog, I kept getting weird links, advertising and even a link to pornography--so now I always look over the comments before I allow them to post. Unfortunately sometimes is is a few days between me being able to look at my blog.

It comes across very rude and I am sorry. I just haven't been able to figure out how to keep spam and stuff off the comments.... Or bad language, etc.