photo.php(Since the photo is so small, click here for a larger image.)
SDA Youth Pastor Alden J. Ho, also a professional photographer, captioned the photo with: "Mock up end-times hunt for Sabbathkeepers."
At the very least, it is astonishingly dysfunctional that a church leader would dramatically pre-enact a terrifying prophetic massacre of their people. Can you imagine a Jewish prophet of the 20th century getting together a group of Jews and pre-enacting the Holocaust? Not to warn them to get out of Germany, but just to prepare them for the gas chambers? Or an Old Testament prophet re-enacting the slaughter of Jerusalem and the Babylonian Captivity, not as a warning to repent and turn from their wicked ways, but just to prepare them for the tortures and persecution and martyrdom?
You see Adventists don't see this persecution as punishment from God, not as something they can prepare for and avoid. No, their prophetess Ellen White, had a vision and foretold that because they kept the correct Sabbath, because of their obedience to God, that all other Christians will vent Satan's wrath upon the SDA remnant. Adventists will be hunted down and martyred for keeping Sabbath. Every Christian who continues to disobey God by going to church and worshipping God on Sunday (which they believe is the wrong day to worship) is going to receive the Mark of the Beast.
This recent Adventist theatrical pre-enactment tells us, out here in non-SDA land, that despite their persuasive declaration that the church is no longer fearmongering its youth about other Christians and that it has dropped ridiculous and unbiblical last-day prophecies, that some Adventist church leaders are back to the old scare tactics. "Stay safely inside Adventism, all other Christians are some day going to come after you, torture and martyr you." (Well, actually the word safe to them means eternally, spiritually safe because obviously your physical bodies are going to come to great harm for being SDA.....)
It is tragic, though that the SDA church still considers Ellen White a prophetess (or more technically, they use the term "messenger") and as you can witness, still perpetuates her horror stories as truth.
The good news, the very good news is that this prophesied hunt for sabbathkeepers is a delusion of a mentally ill 19th-century woman who sustained a serious head injury that brought on religious hallucinations. So, those who have been taught this anti-christian and anti-biblical prophecy, we call upon you to jettison those Adventist nightmares foisted upon your imagination by well-meaning leaders.
Replace fears of false prophesies with the truth of a loving, merciful and forgiving Father. It is enough for you as Christian youth to take up your cross daily and follow Christ in a world that bombards you with constant temptations today! Find your true rest in Jesus, our blessed Lord, and remember that the Bible says that love casts away fear. Adventist doctrine creates fear: fear of sudden judgement, fear of other Christians, fear of last-day tortures. This is not from God.
Fear thou not; for I am with thee: be not dismayed; for I am thy God; I will strengthen thee; yea, I will help thee; yea, I will uphold thee with the right hand of my righteousness. Is. 41: 10Let not your heart be troubled; ye believe in God, believe also in me. In my Father's house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye maya be also. John 14: 1-3
63 comments:
Where are the papal flags? It interesting to watch Bacciochi's transformation in his final year or two from the traditional adventist view of the end-times to one that shifted the focus to Islam. But of course, even that it traditional sda practice; didn't Uriah Smith think the Ottoman empire would play some role in end time events?
I wrote the pastor/photographer of this photo and asked for the context. This was his response:
Hi Teresa,
Thanks for the message. This image I took was from Camp Au Sable in Michigan Conference. It was the last Sabbath of camp, and this was one of the stations that they had to portray the events that will surround God's people in the last days during the time of persecution that will take place.
God bless.
Pastor Alden J. Ho
Wheel Salt Ministries
www.aldenho.com
"He who is truly converted will be so filled with the love of God that he will long to impart to others the joy that he himself possesses." 9T 30
Revelation itself speaks of a time just before Christ comes that persecution will take place on the entire Earth (Rev. 13). It also makes it clear that those who will be persecuted will be those who keep the commandments of God (Rev. 14).
Funny thing is you and you're church can not claim to keep God's commandments, you keep the commandments and traditions of men. Something you're church is proud to admit and God condemns. It is as simple as that!
The seven last plagues will be the judgment of God to those that choose to follow this false worship system (Rev 15-16).
This false system of worship is described as:
Speaking blasphemy against the Most High (infallibility, forgiveness of sins, Mary as co-mediatrix)
Thinking to change times and laws [of God] (Sabbath to Sunday, pretersm and futurism)
Killing the Saints [those that stayed true to God and His commandments] (inquisition and more)
All of which your'e church is most assuredly guilty of! And I am under a delusion?
Following God in the manner He set forth will naturaly bring on persecution in some form from the world, everyone agrees with this fact right? Jesus said the world would hate us. Now how much more will the world hate God's true followers, if the world decides to "convert" to a false system of worship? What have we seen in the past, both distant and not so distant? True Christians are a thorn in the side of those that think they are Christians.
It is not a conpiracy theory to anyone who reads Rev. 13 to see that just before Christ comes, everyone will make a choice of who they will worship! Paul makes it clear in the last days men will be.......having a form of Godliness, but denying the Power therof (2 Timothy 3:5). He is describing supposedly "Christians". Now it doesn't take a genius to see that when Christians by name only come in contact with real Christians persecution follows. Why do you act as though this can't happen today? Are men any different?
Rev.13:15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast SOULD BE KILLED.
The book of Revelation is the testimony of Christ, and those who decide to read it to understand will be blessed and given wisdom (Rev. 1)
sad..... just very, very sad. :(
Arik,
Even within the scope of your beliefs, what would be the point of making a group of campers pre-enact what might be, according to them, their own persecution and massacre?
Considering what just happened in Norway, do you think it would be a good idea to have other campers in Norway re-enact it or pre-enact another massacre just in case it happens again?
I am not going to argue the premise of the SDA doctrine, but the wisdom of making a theatrical staging of it with children. What, in heaven's name, would be the point in terrorizing them?
Did the youth pastor believe it is going to help them endure the persecution if they practice? Very, very warped and twisted.
Will the Michigan Conference pay for these young people's therapy after traumatizing them?
It is amazing that those SDAs who talk about the "commandments of God" do not know what they are talking about. The same John who wrote Revelation tells us what they are (1 John 3:19-24)
This same John told us that Jesus broke the sabbath (John 5:18)- a god given interpretation of Exod. 20:8-11 as found in Jeremiah 17:22 - not to carry anything on the Sabbath - which when we were SDAs, we broke every Saturday.
SDAs have a defective view of what the "commandments of God" were to Israel.
Israel was commanded to obey 613 laws - not just nine out of ten commands plus the teachings of a 19th century visionary.
The Holy Spirit through the Apostle Paul (Galatians 3:10), quoted Deuteronomy 27: 26 word for word as being totally applicable to those “under the Law”. ONE and ONLY ONE alternative to being “under the Law” is given in Galatians 5: 16-18 – following Jesus Christ through the power of the Holy Spirit. Deuteronomy 27: 26 is not a “ceremonial” precept as Adventism claims but is repeated as being authoritative in the NT. To claim that there are not 613 commandments of God but only ten commandments, is an unscriptural philosophy taught by much of the world of religion.
Many scriptural references clearly show that these are all God given commands and Israel was obliged to obey all of them : Exodus 24: 3, 7; Leviticus 19: 37; 20: 8, 22; 22: 31; 25: 18; 26: 3, 14, 15; Numbers 15: 39, 40; Deuteronomy 4: 2; 8: 1, 11; 11: 8, 13, 18-22, 26-28, 32; 12: 28, 32; 13: 18; 27: 26; 28: 1, 15, 58; 29: 9, 29; 30: 2, 8-18; Joshua 1: 7, 8; 2 Chronicles 34: 21, 24, 31. Adventism deliberately avoids these Scriptures in order to build a cult around verses that only agree with the teachings of EGW and its inconsistent doctrine of the Sabbath.
SDAs go out of their way to obscure the fact that Christians follow Jesus Christ through the power of the Holy Spirit and that is why they have little understanding of what Scripture is about.
As you know Teresa, many O.T. ethics are restressed, strengthened and reinterpreted in the N.T. The idea that the Law can be divided into "Moral" and "ceremonial" precepts is not biblical, as there are actually more "moral" principles in what Adventism call the "ceremonial Law".
Mark Sheridan
I think you are grabing one photo and showing it out of its context. From what I read this is just one station out of a few, and the focus of this station was remaining faithful to God even at the fear of death. Something even the Bible preaches.
The kids involved are not saying they were tramatized, the leaders of the program are not saying they were tramatized either.
What you can not deny is that persecution will happen again! Revelation confirms this beyond any doubt.
It is best to get the whole context of the program before letting imaginations run with just a photo. I'll admit it looks controversal, but we were not there, and one photo does no justice to what took place or how.
Dear Michigan Conference.
We saw a photo that appeared to be a terrorist-type capture and assassination of some youths posted on the internet taken by Pastor Alden J. Ho, whom I have personally contacted. He responded with the following:
"This image I took was from Camp Au Sable in Michigan Conference. It was the last Sabbath of camp, and this was one of the stations that they had to portray the events that will surround God's people in the last days during the time of persecution that will take place."
This Image is very disturbing for several reasons. I understand that your religion teaches that this in an inevitable future event based upon your prophetess Ellen White, but even within that context, why would you want to pre-enact it? That would be similar to the youth of Norway pre-enaacting their massacre. What could possibly be the point of this? Was this a part of survival techniques for the last days? It is coming across to Christians outside your church as brainwashing techniques, as there seems to be no purpose for this type of theatrical display other than to instill fear.
What you are doing at this camp comes across radical and reinforces many Christians' opinions that the SDA church is a cult. It can also be psychologically and spiritually abusive to these young people. Many children will be terrorized for life. I suggest that you make counseling available for these kids to avoid a lawsuit in the future.
We also strongly advise you to cease from this type of mock up in the future.
God bless you,
Arthur and Teresa Beem
Arik! SERIOUSLY!
I will not debate with you whether it will happen or not... but think about the absolute weirdness of this. Do you see other Christians having youth camps that pre-enact the torments of hell? Do you see youth camps pre-enacting finding out they have cancer or pre-enact spousal abuse and divorce?
WHAT IS THE POINT OF THIS? Are they teaching the kids defensive maneuvers and survival training? I don't think so. There is no purpose at all for this mock up that I can possibly think of.
I would love to see Pastor Ho respond to that question.
Arik,
This photo is a representation of what Ellen White prophesies. I wrote to Pastor Ho and he gave me the context.
I am very sadden and troubled. Sadden, because we have lost a sister in the faith, and troubled because some believe this image to traumatize the young people, when in fact, it is not different than preach a message which shows Biblically the events which are to very soon take place in the closing scenes of this sin filled world.
MY response to your question Teresa of, "WHAT IS THE POINT OF THIS?" The Lord said that if we love Him then we are to Keep His Commandments, as stated in John 14:15. Therefore God also told us to prepared a people to know that He is coming soon and to be prepared for this, and the things to come.
This picture I shot, was in a sense a visual illustration, or visual sermon, which is no different than seeing a picture of Jesus coming in all His Power and Glory at the second, to take His faithful children home who have kept His Commandments, which could also traumatize people and children.
Is Jesus really go to be coming? Yes. Rev 6:16, "and [they, the wicked] said to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! Would this traumatize those who are seeking truth? Sure, they will hunger to know it. But what about those who have turned their back and rejected the mercy of God?
One final point that I will leave you with is a quotation from my favorite author inspired of God, which pertains to those who once believed.
As the storm approaches, a large class who have professed faith in the third angel's message, but have not been sanctified through obedience to the truth, abandon their position, and join the ranks of the opposition. By uniting with the world and partaking of its spirit, they have come to view matters in nearly the same light; and when the test is brought, they are prepared to choose the easy, popular side. Men of talent and pleasing address, who once rejoiced in the truth, employ their powers to deceive and mislead souls. They become the most bitter enemies of their former brethren. When Sabbath-keepers are brought before the courts to answer for their faith, these apostates are the most efficient agents of Satan to misrepresent and accuse them, and by false reports and insinuations to stir up the rulers against them. {GC88 608.1}
It's never too late, unless your eyes close forever, or the trumpet sounds.
This photo portrays distinct contrast to that of Jesus coming in the clouds in all His glory. In the mid 1960's, when my parents and older brother and sister converted to Adventism, it was more common for ministers to preach "hell-fire and brimstone" messages. Consequently, my brother and sister missed out on the love of God messages and quickly exited the SDA church and a relationship with the Lord altogether. In the mid 1970's, I grew up on the message that Jesus' 2nd coming is soon and that He loves me. My faith-journey and relationship with the Lord grew strong. Trauma resulting from physically acting out the type of drama pictured here may not be evidenced right away. I am willing to speculate that seeds of fear have been deeply implanted into the minds and hearts of the youngsters.
Alden, the fact that she may have known anything about the "future" doesn't suggest she is from God.
Acts 16:16, "As we were going to the place of prayer, we were met by a slave girl who had a spirit of divination and brought her owners much gain by fortune-telling."
You really shouldn't be so surprised that you lost "a sister" since you loose 300,000 members every single year.
Pastor Ho,
I know you are probably a sincere man. I know you love your church. I am in no way judging you as a person. You look very young, so I know that zealous young pastors often act before they think.
But think about this. Even within the context of your beliefs--as I know you to believe them with all your heart, so I will not argue about that--using your OWN belief system as a context--it would be very, very harmful to dwell upon the persecutions you believe are ahead.
If a family member of the youth camp in Norway had been given a vision of the massacre a couple generations ahead of it, would it be a good idea to send Norwegian children through a boot camp that would pre-enact it (not for the purpose of educating or helping them to survive it) just because it is going to happen and they need to know it? These Norwegian counselors don't tell the children when and to whom it will happen, but warn them that the torture and martyrdom is going to happen soon. That would be abuse!
Many, many things in life cause us great agony. Would you recommend a mock up of the death of a parent or the agony of a slow dying of cancer or a terrible divorce?
Jesus told us to dwell on the things that are of good report. How can it possibly help these children to get ready by doing this pre-enactment? Would it not do so much more to show them the love and mercy of Christ and that His love will sustain us "though the heaven's fall!"
Some of these children will sustain deep trauma from these pre-enactments that may not surface for years. They may THINK they are okay with it until the nightmares and panic attacks. I have heard many testimonials from many SDA that would back this up.
Teach them utter and total faith in Christ and that His GRACE will be with them to help them through anything the devil has to throw at them. Teach them the power of prayer and mercy upon their enemies.
This is a very disturbing and unnecessary object lesson. I respond to you with respect and with your precious soul as well as the children's always in my forethought.
Pastor Ho, many, many Christians consider Adventism to be a cult. This type of pre-enactment will do nothing but reinforce this stereotype.
It attracts and entices the very criticism that fulfills your last day prophecy.
Behave in a way that abuses your children, create a stir from people who only have your best interest at heart and then you can cry "prophecy fulfilled! We are being persecuted." It is a self-fulfilling prophecy.
All we, out here, can do it pray for you and hope that God will open your eyes.
You know it is very interesting how the adventists by-lines have never changed. But not surprising. Without egw you have nothing. No matter how badly you may want to have an identity of God's "super-christians" it just simply is not true. Based on facts and facts alone. But there is only one fact that really matters at all. The sda church is pro-choice. From the mouth of their own hierarchy some of their "godly" hospitlals are literally abortion mills. And Im sure everyone remembers Dr. Allred from california that had the multimillion dollar abortion clinics and gave his tithe to the church. And the church turned its head and took it. (Or maybe they didnt turn their head) In this whole debate about "end times" and wether this picture that Mr. Ho posted is good or bad. It really in the broad spectrum of things just doesn't seem so bad. When you are able to kill babies for money on a national level why worry about creating terror in young kids? How seriously can we or anyone else take a church that will to kill children? In the bible the Lord had the Isrealites kill entire communities because they were killing their children for Molech. But for some reason now, in this day and age, it is much more important to scare children with sensational end time stories...that do what...!? Adventists run from the discussion on abortion because when they do their research they find out how hanous it really is. There is no real discussion Mr. Ho. You can take pictures, and read all manner of plagiarized books from the proven false prophet you follow. But when it comes right down to it until sda's stand up and stop killing children all of your best intentions are meaningless. Saving childrens lives, lives that whether or not they were a surprise or not, are still lives. To hell with revelation seminars if in the next second your church is killing and making money off of killing children. Please check this out and do the homework. Thank God, we all don't treat our children the way egw did. And yes, you as an sda are responsible for what she did and said....not just, "selected messages" that you think are good to advance your cause. The end times don't matter if you are party to killing children! And if you are sda, then you are party to it. And for the record, I grew up sda, went to college at an sda college, went to church at an sda church, my family help build the sda church and colleges. I am very well versed for decades about the church now and in the past. My heart and prayers go out to you. Just simply be theologically and philosophically honest.
Joe Douglas
Former sda
That is a good post Joe and very true !
32 years ago I had a SDA nurse girl friend who work for the Wahroonga SDA Sanitarium. Before I met her, she had 2 abortions by the age of 19 ! Many of my SDA friends viewed abortion as an expensive form of contraception !
As a former SDA I know that Adventism is not really a Christian denomination as it actively apposes many N.T. ethics which have a commonality with what Adventism calls "ceremonial" law !
The SDA concept that the laws outside of the Ten Commandments are “ceremonial laws” is anti-christ heresy.
SDA evangelist, John Carter goes as far as to say that the laws of the Book of the Law can be broken because they do not “show sin” (Carter Report cassette entitled “ Modern Preachers Go Wrong”, circa 1981).
The New Testament reinterprets and restresses many other Old Testament principles that Adventism blindly considers to be ceremonial laws :
E. G .White’s teaching about the Sabbath being the most important law (Early Writings p.33) contradicts the teaching of Christ (1 Tim. 6:3-5). Jesus quotes Deut. 6:4,5 & Lev. 19:18 (Mark 12:28-31) word for word as being the most important laws of Scripture – two commandments which some SDAs would list among “ceremonial laws” because they are not specifically listed in the Ten Commandments :
“One of the teachers of the law came and heard them debating. Noticing that Jesus had given them a good answer, he asked him, “Of all the commandments, which is the most important?” “The most important one,” answered Jesus, “is this: ‘Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one. Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’ The second is this: ‘Love your neighbour as yourself.’ There is no commandment greater than these.” (Mark 12: 28-31 NIV 1984).
These two commandments are given a Christ centred emphasis in the New Testament (1 John 3: 19-24).
It is interesting to note that George Vanderman named his TV program “It is Written” after what Adventists would associate with what their false teachers would call, a "ceremonial law". Matthew 4:4; Luke 4:4 are not found in the Ten Commandments (see Deuteronomy 8:3). We need to look at the whole of God’s revelation not just the bits and pieces of Scripture that fit EGW‘s teachings (2 Timothy 3:16,17) :
"He humbled you, causing you to hunger and then feeding you with manna, which neither you nor your fathers had known, to teach you that man does not live on bread alone but on every word that comes from the mouth of the LORD." (Deuteronomy 8:3 NIV 1984).
We are not to seek revenge or be unforgiving (Leviticus 19:18; Col. 3:13; Eph. 4:32).
We are not to show favouritism (Lev. 19:15; James 2:1,9).
We are not to be unholy (Lev. 19:2; 1 Peter 1:15,16).
We are not to test God. (Deut. 6:16; Matthew 4:7).
We are not to add to God’s revelation with something that is man-made (Deut. 18:20; Galatians 1:6-9; 2 Jn. 9-11; Rev. 22:18).
WE ARE TO LISTEN TO CHRIST! (Deut. 18:15; Matthew 17:5; Acts 3:22) - How can this be a law which does not show sin???
We are not to practice magic/occultism (Exodus 22:18; Rev. 22:15).
We are not to disrespect government authorities (Exodus 22:28; Acts 23:5; Romans 13:1-7).
We are not to mistreat orphans and widows (Exodus 22:22,23; James 1:27).
We are not to convict a person on the testimony of one witness (Deut. 19:15; Matthew 18:16; 2 Cor. 13:1).
We are to confess our sins (Lev. 5:5; 1 John 1:8,9).
We are not to be unequally yoked (Deut. 22:10; 2 Cor. 6:14).
We are to show mercy (Lev. 25:35-43; Matthew 9:13).
We are to be full of faith and not unbelieving as Israel was (Deut. chapter 1: Numbers chapter 13; Psalm 78:18-22; Hebrews 11:6; John 3:18).
We are not to lead the blind astray (Lev.19:14; Matthew 15:14).
We should “…rebuke your neighbour frankly so that you will not share in his guilt” (Leviticus 19:17 NIV). However to SDAs this also would be a “ceremonial law” as this too is not listed in the Ten Commandments. Jesus also says: “If your brother sins rebuke him..” (Luke 17:3 NIV).
The Holy Spirit through the Apostle Paul (Galatians 3: 10) quoted Deuteronomy 27: 26 word for word as being totally applicable to those “under the Law”. ONE and ONLY ONE alternative to being “under the Law” is given in Galatians 5: 16-18 – following Jesus Christ through the power of the Holy Spirit. Deuteronomy 27: 26 is not a “ceremonial” precept as Adventism claims but is repeated as being authoritative in the NT.
Remember, Adventism denies the teachings of Christ, mentioned above as restressed in the N.T. in order to build a cult around its pseudo-biblical, inconsistent doctrine of the Sabbath.
Jesus says take the beam out of you're own eye before removing the splinter in someone elses. I would say the Catholic Church has a bigger problem on it's hands than searching for everything they deem wrong with Adventism. Every week in my local newspaper there are stories of court cases of sexual abuse by Catholic Priests on children. By men who claim to posses the power of God no less! And you guys are going to make a big deal out of a mock end time scenerio? A scenario you can NOT deny will happen? Give me a break.
The SDA Church must aways remain pro-choice because Jesus is pro-choice. Freedom even to do evil is a God given right. Now you want to judge the Adventist Church on mistakes its fallible members make but would you want me to do the same? Should I look and judge the Catholic Church on its rampant universal stench of it's Priests and its cover up? Didn't Jesus say the wheat and the tares will live together? I think I'd rather concentrate on being a wheat then judging who is a tare.
Mark,
It is improper to suggest that the law in the NT is to "love" without defining what love is. Paul says Love is the fulfilling of the law (Romans 13:10). So let me put it this way, I do not commit adultery against my wife because I LOVE her, therefore my love for her fulfills the law. It is the same for all the law. Paul said he knew not sin until the law said "thou shalt not covet" (quoting from the 10 commandments) Of course it is a law of love. Who here can say that they love ther neigbors and steal from them? Lie to them? Covet from them? Same for God!!! Shall we sin? (sin is the transgression of the law) GOD FORBID!
Jeremiah 31:33 "But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people." It is the same law.
To be "under the law" is NOT read to be "under the obligation" of the law but rather "under the condemnation" of the law! How can a man who is walking by the Spirit be under the curse of the law? A man under the influence of the Spirit will fulfill the law by keeping it, "there is therefore no condemnation to those that walk after the Spirit (Romans 8:1).
Even the Catholic Church recognizes the 10 Commandments as still binding although it took the liberty of changing them.
The theologically dishonest part of that statement is that we, as Christians should not just sit in our own filth and say, "well my dad was a thief so I guess I have to be one too". The people of the sda church state that they have the right to say and do what ever they feel "the Holy Spirit" wants them to do. Kind of like the Vernon Howell thing. We are to put on the armor of God and fight for good, and as we know only God is good. What you are insinuating is that God is o.k. with a group of people calling themselves followers of Him and at the same time kill children. I agree. The sda church is showing its true colors in the national killing of children. Diverting arguments don't take away the sda church not only sanctioning but promoting abortion. There are no diversion tactics that can make these babies more alive. They are still dead. And the sda church is still doing the killing, wholesale and taking the blood money they call "tithe" and eating it up like candy. This is not hearsay or my opinion. This is from the mouths of the leaders of the sda church. There is no "middle ground" for abortion. There is no such thing as being "prochoice". That is theologic cowardice and yes...its still killing. We are as christians responsible to stop sinning, which includes killing, when we see it. Yes all christians have sinned and come short of the glory of God. But that does not mean we sit by and continue to do it. Only an insane person or church would even insinuate God is prochoice, and o.k. with mothers slaughtering their babies
Joe Douglas
Arik, You said:
"To be "under the law" is NOT read to be "under the obligation" of the law but rather "under the condemnation" of the law!"
Just to clarify - are you saying that obedience to the Law (OT Covenant with Israel) is obligatory for you?
Arik,
Jesus is pro-choice. What??!!! Scripture says, I knit you in your mother's womb - and I knew you before you were born.
I'm sorry, I just had to respond. We can't flippantly respond like that when it comes to innocent life. Secondly, there is forgiveness and love for those women who have engaged in an abortion. And I know personally some Christian women who have. Their abortion has caused them enormous pain. Sin does that.
I find this whole discussion highly disturbing.
I know for a fact that this scenario of the Waldensies has been played out in more than one SDA camp. How?.. I was a counselor for 14 years at one. Some of the "persecutors" carried real guns. Those staff worked at cowboy camp and said they had a right to carry those guns. I remember being told a group of kids wet there pants when they were "caught" by the "persecutors".
Come now ... Really?.. Children?.. This type of scare tactics for impressionable children is wrong!!! Don't even try to justify this. Teresa is right. This is wrong.
Arik, you as a typical SDA , like pastor Ho, do not understand what the commandments of God are to Israel. Israel was obliged to obey all of them : Exodus 24: 3, 7; Leviticus 19: 37; 20: 8, 22; 22: 31; 25: 18; 26: 3, 14, 15; Numbers 15: 39, 40; Deuteronomy 4: 2; 8: 1, 11; 11: 8, 13, 18-22, 26-28, 32; 12: 28, 32; 13: 18; 27: 26; 28: 1, 15, 58; 29: 9, 29; 30: 2, 8-18; Joshua 1: 7, 8; 2 Chronicles 34: 21, 24, 31; Galatians 3:10 - not just 9 out of 613 commands plus EGW’s version of Exodus 20:8-11 and the ceremonial law of Leviticus 23:2,3 !!! You people still have the veil over your hearts !
Thomas Aquinas said that “The Mosaic law may be divided into moral, ceremonial and judicial precepts” and that, “all its moral precepts are reducible to the Decalogue” (quoted in D. A. Carson, ed. , From Sabbath To Lord’s Day , Grand Rapids: Zondervan Publishing House, 1982, p. 305).
Ellen White, who copied many of her teachings from those who came before, adopted this philosophy (via the Puritans of North America) into her own “inspired” teachings, by teaching that, “Moses was commanded to write, as God should bid him, judgements and laws giving minute instructions as to what was required. These directions relating to the duty of the people to God, to one another, and to the stranger, were only the principles of the Ten Commandments amplified” (E . G . White , Patriarchs and Prophets, Mountain View, Calif. : Pacific Press Publishing, 1958, p. 364). This is not a teaching that is found in Scripture !
This is not correct !!! In Early writings (pp 32-34), EGW states that if it is OK to break the Sabbath then it is OK to break the other 9, but this is just as stupid as saying that it is OK for an SDA to give favouritism to another SDA over a Roman Catholic (Lev. 19:15; James 2:1,9) or be unholy (Leviticus 19:2; 1 Peter 1:15,16), just because Levticus 19:19 is obviously a “ceremonial” command.
Are you and Pastor Ho going to tell me Leviticus 23:2,3 is more important than the command found in Deut. 18:15; Matthew 17:5; Acts 3:22 ??? Ellen White would because Ellen was clearly a false prophet and anti-christ.
THE IRONY OF ALL THIS, IS THAT ADVENTISM FOLLOWS A TEACHING HANDED DOWN FROM R.C - the people of which, Adventism has preached a “gospel of hate” against, since the time of EGW !
As a former SDA I can say that most Adventists don’t have a clue about how the Judgement works !
“THIS IS HOW THE JUDGEMENT WORKS: the light has come into the world, but people love the darkness rather than the light, because their deeds are evil. Anyone who does evil things hates the light and will not come to the light, because he does not want his evil deeds to be shown up. But whoever does what is true comes to the light in order that the light may show that what he did was in obedience to God.” (John 3:19-21 The Good News Bible).
Who is the LIGHT ? (John 8:12; 12:46-50), certainly not the “new light of White” who Adventists claim is “the lesser light who leads to the greater light“.
Christians follow Jesus Christ, His teachings are what is written on the Christian heart by the Holy Spirit, not “Sabbath , Sabbath, Sabbath, don’t eat this or that, follow EGW and pay your 10% plus compulsory free will offerings to us” , type message.
SDAs have a defective view of Jesus Christ - they don’t believe that the Holy Spirit’s New Covenant message is from Jesus (Galatians 1:12; John 16:12-15) and is about Christ (Roman 1:3) - they think it is all about Ellen and her inconsistent rules !
I am just a very ordinary person, but through the power of the Holy Spirit and only the Holy Spirit, we former SDAs can dismiss any false philosophy from Scripture, the weak false arguments you or Pastor Ho can come up with. MAKE NO MISTAKE ABOUT IT.
I challenge all SDAs to read in its entirety, “Lying For God” by Kerry Wynne & William Hohmann, New 3rd edition - November 27, 2010, which can be read at : http://truthorfables.com/
http://www.truthorfables.com/LYING%20FOR%20GOD.pdf
I also challenge any SDA to answer it arguments away, line by line from Scripture
Arik, you say,
To be "under the law" is NOT read to be "under the obligation" of the law but rather "under the condemnation" of the law!(end quote)
You twist Scripture by contradicting the Holy Spirit's words of Galatians 3:10 which is a word for work quotation from Deuteronomy 27:26 : "Cursed is he who does not confirm the words of this law by doing them.’ And all the people shall say, ‘Amen.’" (NASB) You also contradict over 30 passages of Scripture that required Israel to obey every law of the Torah. These were God-given Laws.
You do this in order to vindicate Adventism and its inconsistent doctrines. Who is your God ?
Arik, you say,
Jeremiah 31:33 "But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people." It is the same law. (end of quote)
Again you show that you do not understand Scripture but have been letting SDAs fool and indoctrinate you.
The Ten Commandments were called the “words of the covenant” (Exod. 34:28, NIV). Jesus is the Word and mediates the New Covenant (Heb. 8:6), who has made the “stone tablets of the covenant” (Heb. 9:4, NIV) as a system of law, “obsolete” (Heb. 8:13, NIV). The ministry of the life-giving Spirit (2 Cor. 3:17,18) has caused the law including the tablets of stone (2 Cor. 3:3,7), with its glory to be “done away” (2 Cor. 3:11, KJV). To non-born again people especially SDAs this is unthinkable but it is true - that is why Adventism is in the mess that it is ! Most people who truly get born again, see it for what it is and get out.
You say, "there is therefore no condemnation to those that walk after the Spirit (Romans 8:1). (end quote)
Catch is - you must be born again (John 3) , you must have the Spirit of Jesus (Romans 8:9) you must receive the Biblical Jesus not the “other Jesus” (2 Corinthians 11:3-5) of EGW. If you do not have a supernatural revelation of what Scripture really means by Jesus living within, you do not pass the test (2 Cor. 13:5) and you don’t get the Holy Spirit by obeying “bits and pieces” of O.T. Law as SDAs think ( Galatians 3:1-5).
Thanks for posting this appalling story. This is the exact same fear mongering that Herbert Armstrong dumped on his cult members. Since Armstrong was a splinter of the SDA's, it only seems logical that he would keep this fear tactic to keep his members under control. Thank God I am free from that absurdity!
Arik and Pastor Ho and any other SDA who defends this picture,
All of my SDA life as a child I was taught of this future impending doom. I was taught the world would not last another 5yrs. (I am 57 now) There was always the sense of urgency to "get ready, get ready, get ready" per EGW and always feeling "less than". I grew up fearful and with anxiety and to this day I dream that something is chasing me to do me harm. This photo brought out those anxieties and I was an emotional mess today. I was even late for work because I could not believe what I was reading and seeing on FB. I am no longer an SDA but this sort of thing that you teach your children results in emotional disturbances in sensitive individuals as myself.
You all can defend it if you wish but it is child abuse in the long run. The children may have had fun at the time making the drama but it is implanted in their psyche and is not a good thing.
Not only that but your own prophetess EGW speaks against theatrics and playing out drama. You SDA's pick and choose what you wish to believe from her writings and Sabbath keepers being persecuted in the last days is one of the things you choose to keep. It is not in the Bible so why not discard it with the rest of the garbage that she wrote about.
Disgusted!
LouAnne,
I am so sorry about the trauma this caused you. I know so many people who are agnostic and atheists (who chose to not believe in a God at all) because of the god they were taught in the SDA church. I am so sorry.
The more fundamental and orthodox an SDA family is--those who read Ellen White daily and believe what she wrote-- tend towards being the most dysfunctional. Those whose family's who are more liberal seemed to survive it's demonic doctrines much better.
If I could just reach out and warn SDA parents of the damage they are doing their children, if I could let them see what their children are going to be like in ten or twenty years if they continue to teach them such abusive doctrines, they might then see the light. But as I have written before, Adventists sacrifice their children on the altar of Adventism. They are willing to sacrifice EVEN their children and their children's future on earth and maybe even heaven to stay utterly devoted to their SDA neurosis.
So many good, traditional SDA parents are heart sick over the way their children turn out--they reject all Adventism and maybe even God. They don't know what happened and they are dumb founded as they, as parents, were faithful SDAs! They feel Satan particularly picked on their families, when they are ABSOLUTELY RIGHT!
Just not in the way they think. Satan laughed as sincere, yet gullible parents took their children to Sabbath school and indoctrinated them into his personal favorite lies! Singing little cute lies, getting them to believe that some day they would be privileged enough to die for his pretty little prideful lies about being the remnant.
They presented the god Ellen White wanted them to show and he is not a good god. No wonder children grow up to reject him. I watched hundreds of nice kids from nice SDA families become utter messes as young adults con summed with alcoholism, drugs, promiscuity, depression. (I taught in SDA sabbath school, children's church and in the schools for 20 years so I watch a whole lot of SDA kids become self-destructive.)
Yet these parents are bewildered and never really get that it was the doctrines themselves that ruined their children's lives. it was because they were GOOD traditional SDAs that caused their family's dysfunction.
All I can do is mirror Ellen with my own solemn warning, "GET OUT, GET OUT, GET OUT!" For the sake of your children's souls!
Yes, some families do survive it, but they are the lucky ones. Satan is a roaring lion out to devour those he can. Adventists are easy pickins!
Let me clarify my position. I am pro-choice not pro-abortion! Jesus is absolutely, most definetly, unequivically pro-choice! We have the right to live anyway we wish, of course the choices we make have consequences,(is that not at least one example illustrated to us in Eden) but the fact remains that freedom to choose, even to choose to do evil, is a God given right!
We do not judge each other, or our churches on the mistakes of it's members. If we want to judge, then let's judge doctrine. Should I create a website just to dig out all the dirt in the Catholic Church? Fact is the wheat and the tares will live together in the church until Christ Himself comes to gather His flock.
No one here can deny the fact the Catholic Church considers the 10 commandments as binding! Please look it up in the catechism. So no matter how many of you want to argue the invalidity of them (and really let's be honest, it's only the Sabbath you wish to ignore) Catholicism considers them still in effect. So the only thing really that should be discussed is; How can a church "change" the 10 commandments (recognizing them as part of the covenant) of God "after" Jesus died? Once the New Covenant was ratified by Christ's blood, no man can change the covenant! Jesus Himself could not change the law, He was bound by it.
P.S.
EGW's statement about the Sabbath being the "greatest commandment" is not to be taken in the context of what is written in the Bible. Greatest here is remarkable or notable. She is not answering the question posed to Jesus "what is the "greatest" (most important) commandment. She is not conflicting Scripture.
[for reference:]
1968 The Law of the Gospel fulfills the commandments of the Law. The Lord's Sermon on the Mount, far from abolishing or devaluing the moral prescriptions of the Old Law, releases their hidden potential and has new demands arise from them:
2062 The Commandments properly so-called come in the second place: they express the implications of belonging to God through the establishment of the covenant.
2061 The Commandments take on their full meaning within the covenant
2060 The gift of the commandments and of the Law is part of the covenant God sealed with his own.
2059 The "ten words" are pronounced by God in the midst of a theophany ("The LORD spoke with you face to face at the mountain, out of the midst of the fire."21). They belong to God's revelation of himself and his glory. The gift of the Commandments is the gift of God himself and his holy will. In making his will known, God reveals himself to his people.
2058 The "ten words" sum up and proclaim God's law.
2064 In fidelity to Scripture and in conformity with the example of Jesus, the tradition of the Church has acknowledged the primordial importance and significance of the Decalogue.
2067 The Ten Commandments state what is required in the love of God and love of neighbor.
Well, Teresa, You left the impression that my experience growing up in Adventism caused my Atheism. I must follow up and say that NO, it was not the abuse and false doctrines of Adventism that turned me to Atheism. I was a gospel believing Christian for a time after leaving. My Atheism has to do with educating myself to the history of not only Adventism but all religion.....and the origins of gods etc.
I encourage Adventists (and all religions) to really delve into the history. It is an eye opener.
I do firmly believe that acts such as portrayed in this picture cause long term paranoia and anxiety. I have a family member who has been plagued all her adult life with severe anxiety and panic attacks. She is extremely afraid of growing old and dying. She is deeply entrenched in Adventism in her home life and work. I believe that her anxiety is linked to her religion.
As a child myself, I was scared of becoming demon possessed because I had heard Ellen White say that children are particularly susceptible to demons. I was afraid of dying in a car accident while having un-confessed sins hanging out there because I knew I would not make it to heaven if I did not ask for forgiveness for all my sins. I used to practice an extremely fast prayer asking for forgiveness in my head that I hoped to get out if I ever had time to see that I was about to die. Do I sound crazy? Probably so. That's what Adventism did to my mind.
Children shouldn't be worried and scared about the things I was as a child.
Children at camp should be eating smores, singing songs, swimming and riding horses. NOT witnessing the torture that they believe they will have to endure for worshiping on Saturday.
I know the children have emphatically stated that they were not harmed or scared. And that is what disturbs me the most. They don't even know the damage that is being done to them.
Arik,
Please explain your statement that Jesus was pro-choice. Jesus was okay with the killing of babies inside the womb? How can a supposed Christian make such a statement? I'm absolutely incredulous!
Is Jesus "pro-choice" when it comes to your day of corporate worship or just when it comes to killing babies in the womb? Is Jesus "pro-choice" in the matter of eating pork or shrimp or just when it comes to killing babies in the womb? Is Jesus "pro-choice" when it comes to wearing earings or necklaces or just when it comes to killing babies on the other side of the birth canal? Is Jesus "pro-choice" when it comes to drinking a beer or a glass of wine or just to kill babies in the womb?
I'm very interested in your answers.
Thanks in advance.
Aaron
this photo is going viral, I used to have nothgmare about this kind of thing. a good example of religious ideas of madness. total nonsense, thismkind of stupidity should be shared so everyone knows what rubbish is spouted from crazy fundamentalists..
Maybe... (although misguided as he may be on doctrine) Pastor Ho is trying to teach a lesson on fortitude and contending for the faith. I think, however, he should stick with what is known - history- instead of speculating about the future.
Here’s a suggestion: how about a RE-enactment instead of a PRE-enactment? That way no one can argue that he is not factual or doctrinally unbiblical. And what better place to start than with the Reformation leaders who brought back the light of Sola Scriptura from the darkness of Roman Catholicism - and the pure gospel of grace ALONE, through faith ALONE, in Christ ALONE, for the glory of God ALONE, by revelation of Scripture ALONE. What about a historical re-enactment of how those brave men, women and children went singing to the torture and fire and death rather than to compromise on the gospel, as the Catholic church demanded of them? Or maybe we can visit the colliseum and ancient Roman empire where the early Christians, including the Apostles, received their martyrs’ crown, most after much cruel torture.
Or maybe Pastor Ho, instead of acting these things out, should just gather the kids for a public reading of Foxe’s Book of Martyrs or Hebrews 11 and 12; where they can learn the detailed and true accounts of the torture and persection and murder by ancient Rome and Roman Catholicism and the Jesuits and the pagans through the beginning centuries of this “age of grace’ - and of gospel-believing Christians like the Waldenses, the Reformers, the millions of victims of the Inquisition, etc.... who died for their faith.
Of course, teaching these things would be considered child abuse and psychological trauma by most.. Paul, however, tells us to teach the full counsel of God. But, then again,... I’d hate to present a message to people, and especially teens and children, that might make them uncomfortable. You might even call it psychologically criminal to suggest that there might come a day when any one of us will be faced with the the choice of 1) standing and dying for our faith, or 2) betraying the Savior, who ransomed us with his life’s blood. Or, maybe...... those martyrs actually didn’t have to be tortured and killed. If only those, like Huss and Jerome, had chosen to agree on the things they had in common with the Pope, then everyone could embrace the Christ of their own choosing, and we could have real peace. You know what they say, keep the meat and spit out the bones. If only the martyrs had realized this.....so sad. Stupid martyrs.
Apparently, Pator Ho, after “de-friending” a person who shared his link at “Former Seventh-Day Adventist” facebook site is “lying low” as he has no answers - ha ha !
One lady said:
“I found him. He is still on FB but has gone extremely private. Probably a good idea for him. I think SDA doctrine requires people to live a lukewarm faith. To get publicly passionate and on fire about the SDA "gospel" requires you to expose some pretty unbiblical teaching to the world. It is necessary to only live that kind of faith out loud in front of others who are like minded. It requires you to live safely behind a fortress of privacy and pride..” (end quote)
Pastor Ho, get on this facebook site and prove us all wrong, from a sound exegesis of Scripture - what a joke ! Don't just shiver in your boots !
Arik, you say,
Revelation itself speaks of a time just before Christ comes that persecution will take place on the entire Earth (Rev. 13). It also makes it clear that those who will be persecuted will be those who keep the commandments of God (Rev. 14). (end Quote)
You and Pastor Ho don’t get it do you ? The commandments of God spoken of by John are not nine out of 613 commands and the biblically inconsistent SDA doctrine of the Sabbath - they are the same ones that He spoke of in 1 John 3: 19-24 and the Gospel of John - Jesus Christ’s teachings - but you do not believe that Christians follow Christ.
That is why the whole Earth is affected ! It is the biblical Gospel that people are being persecuted for. Do you really think that Osama Bin Laden’s followers will be sitting in a cave and thinking “oh no, those Catholics are going to persecute us for not going to church on Sunday”. How about China, India, Saudi Arabia, Iran - are these people worried about Roman Catholics ?
Dear oh Dear, you people are to be pitied and are so out of touch with reality. The everlasting gospel is what matters, but you, SDAs and Pastor Ho have no idea of what it is !
That is why persecution takes place over the whole Earth as it is now happening. SDA pastors who find that EGW was a heretic are being persecuted by the SDA for being honest with God.
And Arik, give me some time and I will show you from the REAL O.T. commandments of God how unbiblical your’s and Pastor Ho’s doctrine of the Sabbath really is. A messageless message.
LouAnne,
Please accept my sincere apology. I did to you what I very much dislike people doing to me, I equated your new beliefs with some past hurt.
I left Adventism because I studied my way out.
You left religion because you studied your way out.
I totally respect that. Again, sorry!
Arik said,
EGW's statement about the Sabbath being the "greatest commandment" is not to be taken in the context of what is written in the Bible. Greatest here is remarkable or notable. She is not answering the question posed to Jesus "what is the "greatest" (most important) commandment. She is not conflicting Scripture. (end quote)
She was absolutely contradicting Jesus Christ - that is why Adventism has been a sectarian religion of hate - because it has assumed that Lev. 19:18 is very "secondary" in SDA thinking, as it is not listed in the Ten Commandments.
It amazes us former SDAs how you people twist the facts and try to deceive !
You said "Greatest here is remarkable or notable" (end quote)
How can it be "remarkable or notable" when the "importance" of the Sabbath is not mentioned in any of the N.T. epistles to gentile Christians - people who knew next to nothing about O.T. Law. It is only mentioned once by Paul, Colossians 2:16 and then only in a negative manner !
SDAs don't try keep the Ten Commandments !
As Teresa has pointed out their hospitals are abortion mills.
They lie in order to defend false doctrines they cannot explain with sound Scriptural exegesis.
http://www.truthorfables.com/LYING%20FOR%20GOD.pdf
They lie when they claim to "keep" the biblical doctrine of the Sabbath.
They idol worship EGW, their own church and their inconsistent doctrine of the Sabbath. “You shall have no other gods before me - yet SDAs, would rather follow Ellen than the biblical Jesus.
When we were SDAs in art classes, we made "graven images" - Israel was obliged to obey every precept, not just the "Sabbath, Sabbath, Sabbath" stuff of EGW !
And here is a "beauty" - “You shall not misuse the name of the LORD your God, for the LORD will not hold anyone guiltless who misuses his name" The name of God is the "Alpha and Omega"
Ellen White called the “alpha” and “omega” - “an apostasy"
An interestingly bizarre advertisement in the "Adult Sabbath School Lessons(Greater Sydney Conference of SDAs, Jan-March, 1982. See also www.adventistarchives.org/docs/AAR/AAR19811012-V86-41__C.pdf ,
p.13 - see advertisment for the book entitled, "Omega" by Lewis R. Walton ), says that :
“Those familiar with denominational history can identify the beginning of the twentieth century as a time of fearful discouragement for the Seventh-Day Adventist Church, as some brilliant and respected leaders succumbed to influences that resulted in their being separated from the movement. Ellen White called this apostasy the alpha, warning that it would be followed by an even greater falling away - the omega…”
A bad choice of words to say the least. The Bible of Ellen White’s time, the King James Version, does speak of a “falling away” (2 Thessalonians 2:3,4), which the Good News Bible calls “the final rebellion” - that is the blind following of someone or something sitting in the place of God (2 Thessalonians 2: 3, 4, 9-12). Christ is identified by the New Testament as being both God (Colossians 2;9; John 1:1) and the Alpha and Omega (Revelation 1:8, 17,18; 21: 6; 22 :13,16).
Rejection of Christ and His Gospel is the last deception (John 3:18, 36; 12:48; 1 John 5:11, 12; Mark 8:38; 2 Thessalonians 1:8, 9; 2 John 9). The Alpha and Omega certainly is the enemy of Ellen White’s “authority”! EGW sits in the place of Christ as she is an anti-christ.
You shall not steal - Ellen White stole the works of other people, then claimed to see it all in visions. She was a thief who lied about where she got her "inspiration". The SDA denomination is still selling these stolen goods, as the writings of EGW. The denomination also claims she wrote them, but she did not have control over everything written under her name as she had secretaries helping with the copying !
The denomination steals finances from its members, by its false use of raising finances to fund the preaching of error.
It coverts the wealth of its new converts and the general community.
It practises Institutionalized Deception http://www.nonsda.org/study12.shtml
At http://patricia-allen.blogspot.com/ , SDA minister Rodney A. Brown Sr. says concerning Adventism’s inconsistent doctrine of the Sabbath :
"Most who attempt to prove it done away with, use the text in Colossians 2:16 "Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath [days]:"This is referring to the Jewish Sabbath days (that were held on dates, and not on a day of the week) involved & included in the ceremonial law of Moses that was nailed & abolished on the cross of Jesus !”
He claims “…Clearly, it still remains! Without being changed, or taken away, God's Holy Seventh Day Sabbath STILL REMAINS!!!…”
(end of quote)
SDAs have another major challenge to add to their seemingly endless doctrinal problems :
If Colossians 2:16 does fail to mean what it means , then SDAs break every God given interpretation of the O.T. Sabbath doctrine !
SDAs CLAIM THAT THE DOCTRINE OF THE SABBATH IS THE REAL BIBLICAL DOCTRINE, BUT THE SCRIPTURES SHOW THAT WHEN WE WERE ADVENTISTS, WE BROKE ALL OF THE GODGIVEN INTERPRETATIONS OF THE COMMANDMENT CONTAINED IN EXODUS 20:8-11 - THE SDA DOCTRINE OF THE SABBATH IS A INCONSISTENT PSEUDO-BIBLICAL FALSEHOOD.
SDA John Carter says that “the Bible is the only guide to Christians” , “..the hardest thing for a person to take…is to find that old ideas are not taught in Scripture…” , “Scripture is the final standard..” , “..that which cannot be supported by Scripture is a vain and superfluous invention of Satan himself…” “..If it came after Christ and the Apostles, then it is not part of the Word of God…” (Carter Report Cassette, entitled, “Trial By Jury”, circa 1980).
E.G. White severely criticised Catholics as “..those who laid down the banner of Christ and departed from the faith which was once delivered to the saints Jude 3″ (E. G. White, The Controversy, p.51).
However, John Carter on another occasion says, that people living before the SDA message was preached (that is before 1844), “did not have the truth” on the Sabbath (Carter Report Cassette entitled, “Why So Many Churches?” circa 1980).
Ellen White also said, “I saw that the present test on the Sabbath could not come until the mediation of Jesus was finished, and he passed within the second veil; therefore, Christians who fell asleep before the door was opened into the most holy, when the midnight cry was finished…1844, and who had not kept the true Sabbath, now rest in hope; for they had not the light and test on the Sabbath which we now have” (E. G. White, Early Writings pp. 42, 43).
Ellen’s teaching shows a defective view of what Scripture says about Jesus (Colossians 2:3) and a defective view of the Holy Spirit who searches all things (1 Corinthians 2:10). Much more could be said about these denials.
It is also interesting to note that Ellen taught that, “I was shown that the commandments of God..” (ie primarily her teaching on the Sabbath) “..and the testimony of Jesus Christ relating to the SHUT DOOR could not be separated” (E. G. White, Early Writings p.42). Therefore Adventism’s doctrine of the Sabbath is irrevocably bound to the early SDA teaching that God had shut the door of mercy to those who rejected the Millerite date setting for the second coming (October 22, 1844).
However, God gave Israel certain commandments which were His, not man’s interpretation of the law, “do not work on the Sabbath” as found in Exodus 20: 8-11.
These God given laws are:
All food was not to be prepared on the Sabbath. No boiling of water (Exodus 16: 23).
No travel was allowed on the Sabbath: “..everyone is to stay where he is on the seventh day; no-one is to go out” (Exodus 16: 29 NIV).
No-one was to gather wood to light a fire on the Sabbath (Numbers 15: 32-36).
No fire was to be lit on the Sabbath, even at home (Exodus 35: 2,3).
Nothing was allowed to be carried on the Sabbath (Jeremiah 17: 21,22)
God also gave other laws which were “lasting” regulations concerning the Sabbath :
“Take fine flour and bake twelve loaves of bread, using two-tenths of an ephaha for each loaf. Set them in two rows, six in each row, on the table of pure gold before the Lord. Along each row put some pure incense as a memorial portion to represent the bread and to be an offering made to the Lord by fire. This bread is to be set out before the Lord regularly, Sabbath after Sabbath, on behalf of the Israelites, as a lasting covenant.” (Leviticus 24: 5-8 NIV 1984)
“…to dedicate it to him for burning fragrant incense before him, for setting out the consecrated bread regularly, and for making burnt offerings every morning and evening and on Sabbaths and New Moons and at the appointed feasts of the LORD our God. This is a lasting ordinance for Israel.” (2 Chronicles 2: 4 NIV 1984
).
If one is going to be a legalistic Sabbatarian there is no point in being a phoney one.
Israel was commanded to obey 613 laws not just nine out of 613 commands plus the teachings of a 19th century visionary.
The Holy Spirit through the Apostle Paul (Galatians 3: 10), quoted Deuteronomy 27: 26 word for word as being totally applicable to those “under the Law”. ONE and ONLY ONE alternative to being “under the Law” is given in Galatians 5: 16-18 – following Jesus Christ through the power of the Holy Spirit. Deuteronomy 27: 26 is not a “ceremonial” precept as Adventism claims but is repeated as being authoritative in the NT. To claim that there are not 613 commandments of God but only ten commandments, is an unscriptural philosophy taught by much of the world of religion.
Many scriptural references clearly show that these are all God given commands and Israel was obliged to obey all of them : Exodus 24: 3, 7; Leviticus 19: 37; 20: 8, 22; 22: 31; 25: 18; 26: 3, 14, 15; Numbers 15: 39, 40; Deuteronomy 4: 2; 8: 1, 11; 11: 8, 13, 18-22, 26-28, 32; 12: 28, 32; 13: 18; 27: 26; 28: 1, 15, 58; 29: 9, 29; 30: 2, 8-18; Joshua 1: 7, 8; 2 Chronicles 34: 21, 24, 31.
Christian ethics have a new reference point - Jesus Christ (Titus 2: 11-14; Romans 12: 1-2).
Ironically when we were SDAs we had to go to that which we have called “CEREMONIAL LAW” to find the command to meet together on a weekly basis (Leviticus 23:2,3), no such command is spoken of in the wording of the Ten Commandments, nor is it implied. Exodus 20:8-11 merely teaches that no work is to be done on the Sabbath.
The Sabbath in the Old Testament certainly was a test to the Israelite (Numbers 15: 32-36; Exodus 35: 2, 3), YET TO ADVENTISM UP TO THE TIME OF 1844, IT LOOSES ITS IMPORTANCE AS A TEST, AND THEN BECOMES A TEST AGAIN AFTER 1844 – yet Ellen White says that, “…God has not changed the Sabbath, for He never changes” (E. G. White, Early Writings, p. 33), “The Lord is unchangeable, therefore His law is immutable…”(E. G. White, Early Writings, p. 65) and “..the Sabbath has lost none of its meaning..” (E. G. White, Testimonies For The Church, vol. 9, p. 18).
IN REALITY THE SDA DOCTRINE OF THE SABBATH CONSTITUTES THE TEACHING OF A NEW “GOSPEL” BECAUSE ELLEN IN HER WORDS SAID, “..they had not the light and test on the Sabbath which we now have..” (E. G. White, Early Writings, p. 43).
In a letter to Pastor G.I. Butler, Ellen claims to “have been in communication with heavenly messengers” who had given her “..the gospel messages for this last generation..” ( Letter 86, 1906, quoted in the Australasian Record, June 21 1982 p.3) In other words a direct contradiction of Galatians 1:6-9 !
Compare the following passage from Ellen White’s Early Writings with Ephesians 2: 14-16 :
“I saw that the holy Sabbath is, and will be, the SEPARATING WALL between the true ISRAEL of God and UNBELIEVERS; and that the SABBATH IS THE GREAT QUESTION, TO UNITE the hearts of God’s dear waiting saints.” E.G.White, Early Writings, p.33, (emphasis my own).
“For Christ Himself has brought us peace by making JEWS and GENTILES one people. With his own body He broke down the WALL THAT SEPARATED THEM and kept them enemies. HE ABOLISHED THE JEWISH LAW WITH ITS COMMANDMENTS AND RULES, in order to create out of the two races one new people in UNION WITH HIMSELF, in this way making peace. By HIS DEATH ON THE CROSS Christ destroyed their enmity; by MEANS OF THE CROSS HE UNITED both races into one body and brought them back to God” Ephesians 2:14-16 The Good News Bible (emphasis my own).
Let’s face it - when we were SDA’s, we and every other SDA in existence tended to make up our own “doctrine” of the Sabbath as we went along, depending on who was watching us at the time. The SDA concept of the Sabbath is changing from generation to generation as nothing is clearly Biblically fixed or established. The SDA doctrine of the Sabbath is a “message-less message” very often based on an emotional attachment to Adventism and an inability to accept the truth – which was the whole reason why the 1844 disappointment and the formulation of the “Investigative Judgement” doctrine happened in the first place.
The Sabbath was not always observed throughout Israel’s history :
“He has laid waste his dwelling like a garden; he has destroyed his place of meeting. The LORD has made Zion forget her appointed feasts and her Sabbaths; in his fierce anger he has spurned both king and priest…..
…..Her gates have sunk into the ground; their bars he has broken and destroyed. Her king and her princes are exiled among the nations, the LAW IS NO MORE , and her prophets no longer find visions from the LORD.” (Lamentations 2: 6, 9 NIV 1984)
During the exile to Babylon God did away with Appointed Feasts and Sabbath. The “Appointed Feasts and Sabbath” is the same term as used in Leviticus 23: 2, 3 :
"Speak to the Israelites and say to them: 'These are my appointed feasts, the appointed feasts of the LORD, which you are to proclaim as sacred assemblies. "'There are six days when you may work, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of rest, a day of sacred assembly. You are not to do any work; wherever you live, it is a Sabbath to the LORD.” (Leviticus 23: 2, 3 NIV 1984)
SDAs have to ask themselves “what is the Sabbath doing among the Appointed
Feasts ?”
Another very interesting passage is Hosea 2: 11 : “I will stop all her celebrations: her yearly festivals, her New Moons, her Sabbath days - ALL HER APPOINTED FEASTS.” (Hosea 2:11 NIV 1984). A very similar Scripture to Colossian 2:16.
The Old Covenant was an all or nothing thing. So much for Adventism's claim that the Sabbath was kept throughout Israel's history. Some SDAs treat the Sabbath as if it was an idol to be worshiped - they refuse to come to the reality of Jesus Christ who offers them the real rest that is to be entered.
Adventism says : “The Sabbath is the great test question. It is the line of demarkation between the loyal and true and the disloyal and transgressor ... It is the seal of the living God." (Ellen White, Selected Messages Book 3, p. 423).
What sort of denomination would substitute an O.T. shadow for the indwelling of the Spirit of the Living God ? What kind of religion is this ?
The Bible says that the Holy Spirit is the end-time Seal of God :
“And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit” (Ephesians 1:13 NIV 2011).
“And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.” (Ephesians 4:30 NIV 2011).
“Now it is God who makes both us and you stand firm in Christ. He anointed us, set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.” (2 Corinthians 1:21,22 NIV 2011).
Who should we believe ? The biblical Apostle or the “not so biblical” Ellen and the false religion that supports her teachings
This is a comment I wrote for a Facebook thread about this very picture. I feel it may place some insight on the situation. I do not believe I will change any of your minds about the Christians in the Adventist church, I simply want to explain my view on this discussion.
I see this post and it makes me sad. Sad to see that we, all to easily, fall gossip. I thank you Ron Durham for having the will to stand for your belief, but how I wish that you coul...d go back and do it differently.
I am Eric Paddock and I am one of the program director's here at Camp Au Sable and had a part in the planning and directing of this activity, and as of today I stand by its portrayal and necessity.
If you were part of the camp program this year, I believe you would have a far differing opinion of this activity. You see every part of every day is focused on leading the campers to Christ first. We do not force our doctrines on any of the campers. If they ask, yes, we will answer, but we will not push them to any choice.
As always there is worship in the morning, where praise songs are sung, and the
week’s pastor gives a worship talk. As always there is a three part play that displays the battle between good and evil in a way all can understand. As always there is a Friday night Passion Play that portrays the life of Christ and ends with our risen Savior, and the pastor calls for the campers to commit their lives to Christ, not to doctrine. As always there is Church on Sabbath morning, and Sabbath School following still after where we try further establish knowledge of our God. And as always there is a Sabbath afternoon activity.
Now this Sabbath Afternoon was powerful. Its meaning was not off the cuff, but planned for. The writer looked through prophecy and found issues that needed to be addressed for our campers. She created teachable moments where campers could learn about the second coming, where they could chose to stand up for their beliefs, where they could show their Christianity through their works. She assigned times where leaders would go through scriptures with the Campers explaining what just happened or what was about to happen. She taught them about the falsehood of the rapture, the trials of false christs, the need to believe in God. She took pieces of scripture and explained them with acting, and situations so that when the time comes the campers who came to camp here would know what the One True God’s plan is. The message He has for His remnant people who “…follow the commandments of God.”
With this activity we did not cry “Fire and Brimstone” on those who do not follow God. Instead, as Jesse Snelling mentioned, we said, “Blessed is the one who is persecuted.” We as a camp staff have every desire to show the campers Christ, in every part of our day.
No, this is not a scene from the Sabbath afternoon activity. Yes, this is a posed for picture. Yes, there were guns pointed at staff. No, guns were not pointed at campers. No, those are not campers kneeling in front of guns, they are staff. Yes, this activity was stopped far before the Norway incident. Yes, this activity is over with as we are in our second of three Family Camps. No, I do not regret this activity.
Oh, how I wish that we could go back, before this negative post occurred. Oh, how I wish that we did not fall so quickly into judgment (and I say that to each of us who have had part in this, including staff, and all readers of this post, for at first even I was angry and judgmental, though now I am quite over it) Oh, how I wish that the negative influence from this feed could be gone.
I have no solution for the detriment that has come of this. I do have an offer however. My e-mail address is hoover0309@hotmail.com if you e-mail me I will send you a copy of our play. If you want to speak with me message me on Facebook and I will give you my phone number and you can talk to me personally. I ask, that in the future, if doubt does arise about our program here that you call a leader of this camp and voice it to them. We have, on multiple occasions, changed our program when we have been made aware of our mistake. If after you speak to us, and we find your point valid then we will make necessary changes.
My last thought is this. I ask God for forgiveness, that I was so easy to anger, and so quick to judge. I ask your forgiveness, that this conglomeration of pixels has offended so many. I, as a programs director of Camp Au Sable, in no way am sorry that this activity happened, only the feelings that this picture has evoked.
I love, every camper who has ever been to Camp Au Sable, I love all you posters on this feed. Please reconsider your thoughts on this matter, and e-mail any of us with any further questions.
Eric, I appreciate your comment. I know that the children have stated that they were not afraid and I really believe that they weren't.
There seems to be two issues people have with this picture: 1. the violent nature of the photo 2. the doctrine it portrays. My personal issue is of the latter.
When I first saw this picture, I had no idea why, when or where this picture was taken. I had no idea it had anything to do with a camp. What bothered me about it initially, was the caption that Alden Ho posted under the photo: "Mock up end time hunt for Sabbath keepers." Not "mock up end time hunt for Christians," but "Sabbath keepers."
So, if Adventists/Sabbath keepers are going to be hunted down because they worship on Saturday...who do you suppose is going to be on the other end of that gun? I'll tell you who, according to SDA teachings,...it would be the Sunday church going Christians...like me. Like my son. Like my husband. Like my pastor. Hunting down Sabbath keepers...like my brother. Like my mother. Like my little cousins.
That is what infuriates me the most about this picture.
Nowhere in the bible does it say that the Sabbath keepers will be persecuted. That belief came strictly from Ellen G. White. The end time persecution spoken of in the bible refers to Christians, not Sabbath keepers. However, Adventist children are taught that they will be hunted down because they worship on the Sabbath. NOT because they are Christian, or because they profess that Christ is the living God, but simply because they go to church and worship on Saturday! I know this is what Adventist children are taught because I was an Adventist child.
Christian persecution is taking place right now and it has absolutely nothing to do with what day a person chooses to worship on. The belief that a Sabbath keeper will be persecuted is insulting to Christians like Asia Bibi who is in prison today, beaten and ripped apart from her husband and child, for professing that Jesus Christ is alive.
Nobody cares what day you worship on. Nobody will ever hunt you down, throw you in prison or kill you for going to church on Saturday. What matters is not the day you worship on, but WHO you worship.
Leigh Ann,
I'm sorry you took it that way as it not how we portrayed it at all. The way the program was staged was like this. Our camp pastor got on stage and explained that, as the Bible states, someday God's remnant believers will be persecuted. He took a few minutes to let all the campers know this was a skit and activity and not real life. Then a prerecorded "news cast" was played calling for the rounding up of believers. The campers were taking through stations and yes there were some citizens who would try and thwart the campers plans, but there were also those who helped them along their way. In the end the camp pastor got in front of the group and explained from the Bible, not EGW, some Bible prophecies.
I do not believe that only Adventists will be saved, nor do I believe that all non-Adventists will go to hell. I simply believe that my and your God will do His work to save as many human souls as He can.
I am sorry that your Adventist teachers beat you over the head with Ellen White, and crammed our beliefs down your throat. Some in the Adventist church are guilty of that but not all. As I'm sure that some in your church are guilty of their own sins.
I know that I cannot change your viewpoint on Adventism, and that is ok. I would like to say that I, too, believe that it's okay not to be a Seventh-day Adventist, but I also believe its not okay to not follow any teaching of God. So I will continue studying the Bible, and you continue studying yours, and maybe when we see each other in Heaven we will agree that we were both so wrong about so much.
Much Love. Eric Paddock
Eric,
I think that Adventists and former Adventists talk past each other. I think we all know you are sincere. This is not how nice or friendly or kindly you came across to the children.
It is the actual doctrine. Seventh-day Adventist doctrine states that one day other Christians are going to hunt them down and torture them to try and get them to go to church on Sunday. It is the doctrine itself that is unbiblical, paranoid and disturbing.
We have no personal judgement upon you. What we judge is the actual doctrine itself.
You actually teach and indoctrinate children into believing that other Christians will one day hunt you and other SDAs down and kill you. THAT IS YOUR DOCTRINE. It is what you were portraying and reinforcing upon your students that causes us to shutter with horror.
Do you not see how the doctrine itself is repulsive to us out here?
What Christians outside of Adventism were to interpret Daniel and Revelation and teach in worldwide seminars that one day, very soon, Seventh-day Adventists were going to come and kill us because we go to church on Sunday? What if we staged mock pre-enactments of how you and your church will come and break down our doors and assassinate our children? I am certain you would be sickened that you were so misunderstood and maligned by our doctrine.
Your church prophecy pits us against you. You can't say or write or act it in a way we will find acceptable. The doctrine itself is cultish, mean spirited and anti-christian.
You cannot look at scripture alone and find it. Yes, you can interpret Daniel and Revelation in a way that might read that in the end times some Jews or Christians will endure persecution, but you pit OTHER Christians against you and that has to be found outside the text. That is SDA pioneer additions, SDA tradition--not scripture.
Please attempt to see it from our side. Poison is poison no matter how sweetly you encourage children to take it. The doctrine of the SDA last days scenario is poison. THAT IS what is offensive and highly disturbing to us. It is the opposite of what Jesus taught about love and unity among brothers.
Sincerity doesn't in any way take away from the barbarity of the doctrine itself.
There is no way on earth Christians would ever do such a thing to you. The problem is that you will believe what your prophetess tells you the scripture means, rather than every other Christian denomination and church for all time. You MUST mistrust us because that is your church's raison d'etre. If you let this horrifying prophecy die out, then your church will disintegrate.
You could then keep sabbath as a Messianic Jew or Seventh-day Baptist or many other people who go to church on Saturday. Hey, you could even become CATHOLIC as they also go to church on Sabbath.
I suspect you will remain SDA even though you could be sabbatarians in other church's because to you, you are the sole remnant.
May God have mercy upon us all.
Eric, keep reading the Bible...... alone. But as far as anticipated persecution, you are correct. The Bible predicts it, and anyone who calls it "poison" to teach it, needs to read their Bible. All true Christians will be persecuted.
And Teresa, how is it that you so easily throw out the "we" Christians... aligning yourself as a Catholic, with Protestants. Have you ever heard of the Reformation? Persecution was a bit topic back then. The Catholic church and popes have never recanted for the countless murders and tortures of Protestant, gospel-believing Christians. How can you sit and be offended by a supposed 'insult' by SDAs that Sunday keepers might someday persecute them. I'm pretty sure that Catholics have already proven what they are capable of via history .... and are still capable of given the right situation.
So SDAs have a false prophetess....... stand in line these days.
I would suggest the Biblical solution of preaching to them (SDAs) the gospel: grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone....... but Catholics don't believe that... oh well...
In Christ,
Sharon K
You know, Teresa, I've been thinking off and on about this photo all week. And I just have one more thing to add regarding Alden Ho deleting me from his facebook friends and then blocking me from all contact with him.
If he was right and I am wrong about that photo...why would he block me because I shared it? Wouldn't I be witnessing to others by sharing it? Why would he hide it from me(and anyone I share it with)?
There was also talk on the Camp Au Sable's facebook page about "what would happen if that photo leaked out to the media?!" They all seemed to have a problem with it being seen by the public. That is scary in itself. There should be nothing done at a camp that couldn't be shown to the public.
In my opinion, by the campers wanting it to be viewed only by other Adventists, screams that there was something very very wrong with that picture. Otherwise, why would they want to keep it hidden?
I can't think of anything activities my church does that I would ever have to "explain" or want to hide. So, why was I facebook blocked for sharing something that Adventists so strongly defended?
Leigh Ann,
Right. They are worried about people finding out what the church actually teaches. They realize how bizarre some of their teaching are and know that if it were told upfront everyone would walk away from their evangelization.
Sharon, the Roman Catholic church has many times asked for forgiveness for past atrocities. It doesn't get much media coverage, but many many popes, even recently have admitted and asked the world for forgiveness.
Pope John Paul II called a jubilee year of 2000 and asked all Catholics to spend the YEAR in repentance, prayer and fasting for the church's past mistakes. The pope also made a worldwide tour of reconciliation asking Jews and Protestants in every nation humbly for forgiveness.
I think it is time now that we all be true Christians and forgive each other? Only then can we fulfill the commandments of Christ to show Him by our love one for another.
Hi Good people: I am an adventist and i think Teresa is just scared of her past, and wants to console herself.The Bible must be read in full and all its teaching be accepted as it is.Revelation is purely all about the end times, you can take it positively to prepare yourself or you can take it negatively and look for any reason to satisfy your wrong deeds.What adventism has done is to tell you the truth from the same Bible that we all read.In as much as we shall run away from it,always remember that it will never change because our God never Changes.If you are not comfortable with EGWhite teachings then dont read her books, instead read the Bible and life will still be Ok...And Yes, children must learn the truth and to be tought in a way that it will forever stick into their minds.Because this will be the only way they will understand the world and its temptetions.
Are there any Adventists out there that realize that there are people all over the world being killed for following Jesus Christ? What in the world would Jesus want with your Sabbath-keeping. He desires mercy and love, not sacrifice. You idolize Sabbath and EGW leads young children into believing they will have to someday watch their families being killed. I remember her portraying a murder of Christ's followers and she followed that with a word of wisdom... She said if God's people could see what she saw they would see angels surrounding the Sabbath-Keepers while they are being tortured. I was taught this as a child. I have struggled my entire life to understand a God who needs me to keep His Sabbath. Why would He need that? Does that even make sense? Really? God is LOVE. SABBATH IS THE REST THAT GOD BLESSED ONCE HE CREATED THIS WORLD AND HIS BELOVED PEOPLE! IT IS HIS TO GIVE AND HE DOESN'T NEED ANYTHING WE CAN DO TO MAKE HIM FEEL GOOD ABOUT HIMSELF BEING GOD! I've been out of the church for nearly 30 years and all I can say to you is that though I am approaching my 60's I am still affected by the brainwashing and the way God was portrayed to me. Not just by the church, but by my brainwashed parents as well. I didn't feel love, I felt fear. Now I am free of fear and I feel the love of Jesus Christ every day. MY REST WILL BE WHEN I AM FINALLY WITH HIM IN HEAVEN WHERE I CAN SEE HIM, TALK TO HIM, AS I WAS SUPPOSE TO BE BEFORE SIN. That is why Jesus died. He died to pay our debt in full so we had another chance to be with Him always. He and the Holy Sprit bring joy, peace, love, acceptance! Not the laws of men and false prophets! Where have you heard that before? The "commandments" were to be for righteousness of the jews until atonement was made once and for all. 1st Peter speaks of the gospel being preached to those who are dead so that they can choose who they will serve in spirit. Jesus says he spent 3 days and 3 nights in the heart of the earth. He wasn't just resting on the Sabbath after crucifixion! And when he did ascend to heaven He sat down right next to His Father, who is Spirit, at his right hand. Because God loved His Son, He accepted His sacrifice and only through His Son, Jesus Christ, can we be present with our creator. It's our second chance to be clothed in God's presence; as opposed to being naked and dead in spirit. Adam and Eve lost their eternal life and their relationship with God. Jesus came to give it back to us. How much simpler can it get? Just love one another and do unto others as you would have them do to you. Love God with all your heart and LOVE ONE ANOTHER.
Anonymous, I am so sorry to hear that you still suffer from being under the fear of SDA doctrines. But you seem to understand the gospel and the love of Christ. Thank you so much for posting.
It is very, very egotistical of a church to preach its own demise at the hands of other Christians when those other Christians are being martyred themselves for faithfulness to Christ.
Strange system..... truly an unhappy situation....
If the people keeping God's Law are those that are persecuted in the end time, then "who" are those that are saved out of persecution in the place of safety?
My personal belief is that there will be another religion entirely persecuting the SDA's, COG's, Jews, and Christians in the end time. But, everyone will be so busy arguing over the "Law" that they won't notice it until it's too late.
Thanks for posting this picture. If the people responsible for producing it think it's just fine, then why are they so upset that people are talking about it? It's not just fine by any psychological standards,but SDAs are so indoctrinated they are desensitized to such antics. I expect anyone who grew up SDA experienced some sort of scenario as this and I guarantee you it does have a negative effect on children. One of the things I worried most about was that I could be forced to turn in names of SDA family and friends to the persecutors. Nowhere does the Bible say that citizens will turn on each other in any time of trouble. This is one of many fictions of the SDA church.
I thank Pastor Alden J.Ho and others who bravely posted the picture to tell the truth. Brothers and sisters it will come a time that history will be reveled again. Christians will persecute Christians because of Sabbath keeping. Because of worshiping in Saturday Sabbath. Lets thank God that he will guide us into all truth. Let Him speak to us in His word and His word alone.
Perhaps I am late to the party, so to speak, but this picture of Pastor Ho that so appalled me, and was as I understand it, backed up by the Michigan Conference, does not appear to be a singular event. I found another set of pictures on the internet that appear to be a different set of people (albiet at the same camp), and I have heard of similar pre-enactments at other SDA camps that have scared the ______ out of kid campers. What I have not seen (or I missed on this thread) is any accredited admission of how often these type of scenarios are played out at SDA camp and whether anybody at all gave any thought at all to the psychological implications of such activities.
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