While this video is old, it is important for Adventists to see. You cannot say you are a church that keeps all Ten Commandments when you are a pro-choice church whose hospitals do abortions on demand.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P_lGDBMml28&feature=youtu.be
20 comments:
You realize that just because there is a contingent within the Adventist church that has no problem with abortion that there is likewise a contingent within Catholicism that also embraces a "pro choice" position? Does that fact mitigate against the position that the Adventist church teaches all ten commandments and not just nine?
Just wondering if you're wanting comments on this post?
In each church there are those who keep the doctrines and those who don't and those who oppose the doctrines. The difference here is that pro-life Adventists ARE NOT in keeping with the doctrine of their church. The SDA church is pro-choice and its SDA hospitals who go by the SDA guidelines can perform some abortions on demand. It is PRO-LIFE Adventists who are going against the church.
In Catholicism, the church has been pro-life for all of its 2000 years. Pro-choice Catholics are going against the church.
If abortion is murder, then wouldn't a church that claims to be Christian stand against it?
Adventists break the commandment of "thou shalt not murder" that places it in the exact some spot they claim all other churches are in--they keep only nine of the ten. Therefore, by the SDA definition, they cannot be the remnant of Revelation 14. T
Icyspark, I do not think Mrs. Beem wants comments that disagree with her. She has admonished me before for coming on her page with opposing views. Mrs. Beem, you always seem to find a way to excuse the Catholics, who were not pro-life during the 2000 years of which you speak...when they were murdering people during the Crusades or when they tortured and murdered those who spoke out against them calling them heretics or when native peoples would not convert...shall I go on? Yes, you always excuse the Catholics, but you go after Adventists like Lea Rimini on a Scientology cruise. <---Sarcasm.
M,
I post almost all comments, unless they are spam or have incoherent messages. I think there have been maybe ten in the history of the blog. I don't mean the incoherent in the fact that I disagree with them, I mean they seem like they are written by someone who doesn't speak English and have absolutely nothing to do with this blog. Jesus said we should reason together. That is something I encourage. We NEED to understand each other better. This is one of the purposes of this blog. Unity can only occur after we understand each other and listen to each other's heart.
The Catholic Church has always opposed killing unborn children. Please read the Didache. Please read history. Even when priests and bishops were deciding when life begins (be it at conception or at quickening) they firmly held that it didn't really matter when it came to abortion because abortion was forbidden at any stage after conception. Often scholars look at St. Augustine's (4th century) writings and believe because he wrote that it is possible the soul does not enter the body until quickening, that he was opening it up for abortion--this is patently absurd.
As far as torturing and murdering, the Protestants (numerically) have killed more Catholics than Catholics have Protestants. This is fact, but Protestants would rather point back centuries to find a bad guy they can hate, rather than study up on it. Numerous times, the Catholics has made statement after statement of repentance for anything the church hierarchy or the lay people have done evil during these times you brought up. They have throughly gone through the Mea Culpa repentance phase and yet Protestants would rather NOT forgive them (as Jesus asked us to do) because they they loose their bad guy.
I love being Catholic and I loved being Adventist. I never go after anyone, ever. We are called to love even our enemies. People are not the problem, sin is. We are told in God-breathed scripture that our enemies are NOT humans but demons. So when I discuss theology I am going after LIES by the Devil, not to hurt humans but to help them.
Sin is our enemy, M, sin. And I will fight that with all the strength I have because that is what hurts precious souls that were meant for heaven. Sin makes us hate God. Love is found through searching for God with all our hearts and minds and souls. That is why we discuss here, to find truth--to find God. I found Him abundantly, shockingly, astonishingly in the Catholic Church-- NOT the Catholic people (although they are like any community of faith--the good and bad--and there are many, many wonderful Catholics!) I don't look at people, I look at doctrines and at truth and at scripture. The Catholics have it right. The Adventists have it wrong. I have no emotion at all in stating that. It is what it is. Some people REALLY REALLY want to know the truth as I did.
Blessings M! Know that I love you in Christ and are praying for you. Let us dialogue with kindness knowing we wish only good for each other.
Teresa
Thank you for giving a voice to the voiceless. Our country needs to stop killing it's young. This is the root of many of our societal problems.
May God Bless us all with understanding and Love,
Gina
Catholics are not my enemies. My whole family on my dad's side are Catholic. I grew up in SE Louisiana in a Catholic parish, in a Catholic state. But I am not blind to the history of the Catholic church. I do not blame current members for the past, just as you should not blame all members for one faction of Adventism. There are pro-choice factions in every denomination. Abortion is not one of the 29 Fundamental Beliefs of the SDA, and you write as if it is.
Adventist hospitals/clinics in the official Adventist Healthcare system do abortions on demand. The church's official guidelines are pro-choice.
M - The difference is the doctrine. The new testament tells us to look at the teachings, i.e. doctrine. The members of all churches have many opinions, just as Judas did. We do not judge a church by it's members, but by it's doctrines. The Adventist guidelines, where they voice their abortion stance, is part of their teachings. Their teaching on abortion is PRO-CHOICE. Go and read it. The church and the hospitals are intertwined, so therefor the blood of these babies is on every Adventist church because they accept support from the General Conference through many avenues, i.e. study materials, building repairs and outreach missions.
SDA church fundamentally believes and supports abortion (1970-1971).
Why do Adventists' say that the Catholic church executed the saint's?
"Abortions on demand"---Ridiculous hyper-exaggeration. I 2018, this year, at the Adventist Bioethics Conference, Dr. Ted Hamilton, Senior Vice President for Mission and Ministry for the Adventist Health System, stated that that "abortions on demand are never performed, but, following moral guidelines developed by Adventist ethicists and adopted by the world church, abortions are provided for serious threats to the mother’s life, for congenital birth defects that would result in an early death or severe disorders, and instances of rape or incest."
“The reasons we are doing this,” noted Hamilton, “are for a balance of justice and mercy.” These are issues of layered complexity, he said, and “At the end of the day it is up to the mother, perhaps in consultation with her doctor, maybe her pastor, perhaps the chaplain.”
He went on to explain they are transparent. Pro-choice does not mean anti-life. I wish all of the extremists would stop using hyperbolic language such as "abortion on demand."
Please look up Advent Life (Nic Samojik). Dr. Hamilton obviously isn't aware of the fact that the church's official position is pro-choice and that some SDA hospitals do abortions on demand.
REACTING TO: "Why Be Catholic and Not Just Christian"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dNhNpczRaTc
1. Yes, M, there are factions within the Catholic Church that call themselves Pro-Choice. Our ex-Vice President, ex-Vice Presidential candidate Tim Kaine, and Nancy Pelosi are only a few Catholics in our government system who openly claim this, as well as say they represent the Catholic Church. Yet, clearly they are openly defying it's doctrine and authority and thus, in the Catholic understanding, the authority of Christ and the Holy Spirit. They are not in anyway to be viewed as representatives of the Catholic faith. That is why, in our good Lord's wisdom, church authority was appointed by Him. Still is.
There is also a group called Catholics for Choice, again in defiance of Church doctrine, who wrote a great deal about all the why reasons it should be accepted by the Church authority. It will continue to fall on deaf ears. They, like the politicians, do not seem to understand their roles as Catholic Christians in bringing all things on earth toward God. To glorify the creation that God saw as good, not demise the word of God to a pile of waste and rubble. For creation was made by the word of God. Thus, creation is a manifestation of God's word, which is why God did not leave the first parents with any kind of written word. The word of God surrounded them, as it does today, through Christ. I suggest you read John 1:1-3 for verification on that. (continued)
2. Many Catholics, aligned with the doctrines and the authority of the Church magisterium, are calling out for those who are doing their best to manipulate the Catholic Church into giving in on this issue, to be ex-communicated. You don't seem to grasp that Catholics like me and Teresa totally understand that these pro-Choice Catholic "Christian" people are not in some faith club where it's supposed to be their own will being done. For in Matthew 16:24 Jesus states, " If any man would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me. " Thus, as followers of Christ, Catholics are appointed as a priestly people following God's will, as Christ did, not their own. Glorifying His creation in thanks and praise. I do believe that God's will has said from the beginning to " be fruitful and multiply", not to kill so it's more convenient for your own life, as Cain did to Abel, because he was unhappy with God's choice for his life. And this is what life is for each faithful Christian. Hearing the voice of God and His choice for your life - HIS WILL - just as Christ did, and moving forward with that, not against it.
As far as saving a mother's life, there are ex-abortionist doctors who now campaign against abortion and admit they often used that tactic to justify their job, though the majority of abortions have nothing to do with saving a life. These ex-abortionists say there are several ways of saving both the mother's life and the baby, but to admit that would mean to admit abortions aren't justified. By the way, abortion is a multi-million dollar a year business in the United States (easily researched), which is why, I have no doubt, the Adventists allow their hospitals to do it and then condone the practice using the stance of their "moral" ethicists, as if they genuinely know the mind of God. (continued)
3. Teresa's point is that Catholic hospitals refuse to do it, period, despite the last US government in charge trying to force US Catholic hospitals in doing so. And now, Ireland is also pushing the buttons, which is as much about Protestant control over there as it really is about an unborn infant. I also think that's the case in the US, too, though Protestants would never admit it. But let's be honest here. Catholics have been challenged since the Protestant reformation. To say there is no animosity toward Catholics would be a misnomer, because if there wasnt any animosity, there would now only be one Christian Church, because there is only ONE church that maintains truth. And I firmly believe it is the Roman Catholic Church!
Frankly, I've read the responses to several of Teresa's posts and she is being torn to shreds for being factual and matter of fact in giving her own witness to this church of God's truth. Her defiance of her prior views of Adventism, philosopher of which were developed from her birth well into adulthood, is upsetting your norm and causing quite a bit of fear as well, I'm sure. I have witnessed this myself, concerning especially Adventists, who go after those like Teresa with a venomous stature instead of the love that Scripture commands Christians to give to another, including our enemies. I have spent my life hearing out the various Protestant viewpoint, including attending services in their worship places, in respect for who they are as God's creation. Yet, I have never seen the return respect given to me as a Catholic. So much fear, though Scripture says we do not need to be afraid. As St John reflected, "Now who is there to harm you if you are zealous for what is good? But even if you should suffer for righteousness' sake, you will be blessed. Have no fear of them, nor be troubled, but in your hearts honor Christ the Lord as holy, always being prepared to make a defense to anyone who asks you for a reason for the hope that is in you; yet do it with gentleness and respect, having a good conscience, so that, when you are slandered, those who revile your good behavior in Christ may be put to shame. For it is better to suffer for doing good, if that should be God's will, than for doing evil. " There is hope in me and hope in Teresa and what you read is a defense, done with as much gentleness as we can, As it is out of good intentions that we relate our views with a good of love and unity in Christ. (continued)
4. To say Protestants are innocent of any killing in the name of their faith is a plain, outright slander. An example would be the great Irish Famine in the mid-1800's. Over a million Irish Catholics died of starvation due to being neglected by the Protestant English hierarchy. And those Irish Catholics who came to the U.S. in search of refuge were met with an onslaught of prejudice, as came forth through such publications as Ellen White's "Great Controversy", full of fear and condemnation toward Catholics. There was no treating ones neighbor as oneself concerning the Irish induction into American society. The Irish Catholics came to the American door of Christian faith, yet when it was opened, they did not see Christ there; only the anti-Christ masked as servants of Christ.
But I'm getting off topic here. The bottom line is almost all abortions are committed due to seeing an unborn child as an inconvenience on a person's life. Yet, people play God when a choice is made in response to a fear of the unknown. In this, faith and trust is taken away from God and instead is relied on through human choice, even though, Holy Scripture says that human choice is weak. And this is confirmed in that just because a person has an abortion doesn't mean life is going to pan out to be a better one. In fact, most times, after an abortion, it doesn't. (continued)
5. Humans are God's creation. Thus, it is God's choice, not a woman's, if a human is given life. A faithful Christian believes this. For since it was God who breathed life into mankind, it is also God who can take it away, if He so chooses. Scripture makes this quite clear with Noah's flood and in who He saved. God's choice, not man's! As Moses begged God for mercy in saving the Israelites, it was God's choice, not Moses' choice in their maintaining life. And Scripture continues this theme throughout! So, why do we even need to question God's choice in the case of a pregnancy?
Scripture also tells us that God told Jeremiah that He knew him before he was even conceived. And Psalm 139 states, " For you formed my inward parts; you knitted me together in my mother's womb. I praise you, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made. Wonderful are your works; my soul knows it very well. My frame was not hidden from you, when I was being made in secret, intricately woven in the depths of the earth. Your eyes saw my unformed substance; in your book were written, every one of them, the days that were formed for me, when as yet there was none of them. " I believe this means it is God who has decided who this person is to be. Thus, abortion, in essense, tries to crush the will of God for it works against God's plan, not for it. If you are a Christian, with full belief in God's knowing, there should only be one stance to take and that is in support of bringing a person in this world that God has plans for. God's will be done on earth as it is in heaven is what the prayer Jesus taught us says, not "my" will be done. Funny how many say this prayer, but really don't get how much their own world needs to solely reflect the will of God. The prayer says nothing about making life happy for us in this world, does it? A Christian is to look forward to happiness in the next world. Isn't that what Jesus promised? Though, we can receive joy in this earth when we fully have faith in God's will, no matter any hardship we are confronted with. The apostles were especially examples for this fact. (continued
6. "Following moral guidelines by Adventist ethicists...?" How blind I see this statement is to truth. For Christians, there is only one ethicist to follow, who established the moral guidelines from the beginning. And that is God in three persons...the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. For a moral guideline was beheld, and sanctified by God, when a young, betrothed, teenaged woman whom God overshadowed to give us Our Savior, Jesus Christ proclaimed: "Here am I, the servant of the Lord; let it be with me according to your word." Mary, like Jesus, was a prime servant of God's will, not her own, which we Christian women are to follow the example of. Both she and Jesus met a criteria of death of they proceeded and yet, they continued to trust in God with their lives. Yet, most outside the Catholic Church try to minimize Mary's role in God's plan for creation. As there were two in the beginning that defied the will of God, resulting in them taking on shame, there were two who redeemed us by obeying that will, without any shame, though the world tried to place that on shame them. But there is no shame in following the will of God!
I close with a suggestion to reading the words of St. James in Scripture and a bid for peace in your hearts so that the kingdom of Christ can become a reality for all God's creation. May His will be done! God bless you! (End)
FYI for further study on the Catholic position on abortion, here is an article about the Historical Perspective on the Catholic Church view on abortion:
https://www.catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?id=3361
and a historical summary thesis by a Notre Dame law school scholar:
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://scholarship.law.nd.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi%3Farticle%3D1125%26context%3Dnd_naturallaw_forum&ved=2ahUKEwj9yebu8IjdAhUFk1kKHYwiAZ0QFjAJegQIARAB&usg=AOvVaw02FTZgOgvoHKPUSr2PNc6K
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