Former Adventists and current Adventists talk past each other.
I have been pondering a way to help Adventists
understand our position on why we no longer feel it is necessary to keep Saturday as the Sabbath. There are many biblical and historical reasons to no longer keep a Saturday Sabbath. But one conversation that keeps repeating itself needs to be better dealt with.
Adventist will ask us if in the New Covenant we can murder or steal or covet? If we still have to keep those, why don't we have to keep Sabbath?
That's really the wrong question to ask us for it creates more mud than clarity. Instead of a long explanation, I have come up with a different conversation in which the Adventist is confronted by a Messianic Jewish Christian. If an Adventists can understand why they no longer keep the Passover or the Day of Atonement or the Feast of the Tabernacles then they can get a glimpse of why we don't keep the Sabbath anymore.
I don't know if this will help but it's worth a try.
Let's reverse the roles a bit here so that my SDA family and friends can understand how we hear them when they try and convince us that the Sabbath is still in effect for Christians.
The following conversation takes place between an Atonement-day Christian (AC) and any Jane Doe Christian apologist (JDC). We jump in the middle of their conversation:
You get the drift. All you have to do is insert the Sabbath in place of the Day of Atonement and you can see the former SDA's dilemma. We are trying to show that just because you have entered the New Covenant you are not lawless, but have new commandments and a new law! All the moral laws are still in the New Covenant. We don't steal or commit adultery or overlook incest. But when we are giving the New Covenant law, we don't go back to the Torah, but to the very words of Christ. HE tells us that we are not only to never commit adultery but never even to lust. We go, not to Moses for our law, but to Christ Himself the very source of all law.
Let's reverse the roles a bit here so that my SDA family and friends can understand how we hear them when they try and convince us that the Sabbath is still in effect for Christians.
The following conversation takes place between an Atonement-day Christian (AC) and any Jane Doe Christian apologist (JDC). We jump in the middle of their conversation:
AC: So you don't keep the day of atonement? (AC then lists all the Old Testament passages where it records the atonement is an eternal covenant with God's people.)
JDC: The Day of Atonement pointed forward to the cross and was fulfilled in Christ. He is our atonement.
AC: So now rape is okay? Incest is okay?…. We don't have to love the Lord with all our hearts anymore? There is no more Torah? We are just lawless in the New Covenant?
JDC: No. Absolutely not. We just have a NEW Commandment, a new law for a new Covenant.
AC: But the Bible says that God is the same yesterday and today. He doesn't change!
JDC: Right! We agree. God's plans, His goals and ends never changed and never will. All those things, like the Day of Atonement were shadows that pointed to the reality in Christ. Their purpose is finished. Now we are in the New Covenant.
AC: You are rejecting the plain reading of scripture. It says the Day of Atonement is eternal.
JDC: And it is. It is eternally fulfilled in the Cross. We no longer have a yearly day because we have He who IS the atonement living within us. He is our atonement.
You get the drift. All you have to do is insert the Sabbath in place of the Day of Atonement and you can see the former SDA's dilemma. We are trying to show that just because you have entered the New Covenant you are not lawless, but have new commandments and a new law! All the moral laws are still in the New Covenant. We don't steal or commit adultery or overlook incest. But when we are giving the New Covenant law, we don't go back to the Torah, but to the very words of Christ. HE tells us that we are not only to never commit adultery but never even to lust. We go, not to Moses for our law, but to Christ Himself the very source of all law.
Jesus became our Sabbath when He said, "Come unto me all you who labor and are heavy laden and I will give you rest."
Now our rest is spiritually fulfilled in Christ. There are many lists of sins in the New Covenant.... but nowhere is sabbath-breaking
listed as a sin after Christ's death. But adultery is, coveting is, incest is, divorce is.... Jesus gave us a New Commandment on the Mount of Blessings. That is the New Covenant.
7 comments:
'Jesus became our Sabbath when He said, "Come unto me all you who labor and are heavy laden and I will give you rest."
Scripture in no way ever says that "Jesus became our Sabbath". The "rest" that Jesus gives us is the same "rest" He offered to Israel, of which they did not enter into because of their unbelief. Read Hebrews chapter 3 and 4 and you will clearly see that the Sabbath is a symbol of entering into His rest, the same rest He created at creation. You have not thought this through! If Jesus is the rest, then why did the Catholic church create a new day of rest (Sunday)?
"Now our rest is spiritually fulfilled in Christ. There are many lists of sins in the New Covenant.... but nowhere is sabbath-breaking listed as a sin after Christ's death."
Contrary to Catholic teaching neither is it a sin or a commandment for that matter to keep Sunday as a sabbath. I find also that the sin of taking the Lord's name in vain is also not listed as a sin after Christ's death either, so your point is moot. Was Jesus laying down a new law in His sermon on the mount? Or was He simply showing where the keepers of the law had circumvented one of the greatest commandments to love each other? A key to understanding Jesus is in His words "You have heard, and it was said" He did not say "it is written and now I am rewriting." All the laws of the OT are under the umbrella of the Ten Commandments and were given to further help to express the law of love. The principle of love has not changed one bit, when Jesus says "If you love me keep my commandments" He is showing that willful and faithful obedience is an expression of love. I can express it this way: I have been married for 20 years, I do not commit adultery, not because there is a law that says I can not, but because I love my wife. This is having the law of love written into my heart. This is the purpose of the sermon on the mount. To show the law as law of love, and how love fulfills the law, exactly like Paul said! Romans 13:10-"Love does no harm to a neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law."
In unambiguous language Catholic teaching is clear that the Ten Commandments are still binding and still obligatory for all Christians. If what you say is true that Biblically the 4th commandment does not have to be kept, then there are only 9 commandments, because Biblically Sunday (your 3rd commandment) can not be sustained.
That is the only commandment that says "Remember" and you think it is ok to forget it??
Arik and Anonymous,
I think if you reread the post you will find you fell perfectly into my stereotype of Adventists speaking past former Adventists. Before we get onto SDA talking points please try and understand the point of my post. Former Adventists feel about Sabbath the way Adventists feel about the day of Atonement. When you understand our position then we can continue this conversation.
Actually Teresa the way I see it, it is you who are "speaking past" Protestants and former Adventists. If a Protestant truly believes that the 4th commandment is no longer binding, then that Protestant must believe that all of the Ten Commandments are no longer binding or there are no longer ten commandments but only 9. However as a Catholic who adheres to the teaching of the Church, which unequivocally teaches that the Ten Commandments are binding and obligatory for all Christians (2068), you should address when the Church decided to add it's 3rd commandment to the Decalogue to keep Sunday as a holy day. Something a true Protestant who's roots are grounded in Sola, Tota, and Prima Scriptura would never accept.
Your entire argument falls apart when you realize we do NOT have a new law for a New Covenant. Your Catechism is crystal clear regarding the Ten Commandments: "The Decalogue must be interpreted in light of this twofold yet single commandment of love, the fullness of the Law:" (2055). Now you say that Jesus on the Sermon on the Mount gave a new law? As though love somehow is different from the Old Testament to the New? Jesus showed by his life exactly how "love fulfills the law" (Romans 13:10), because "God is Love" (1 John 4:8).
The Catholics, Arik, treat the Ten Commandments just as Christ treated them. The New Covenant uses them as a source for a NEW law and a NEW covenant, but they are not the same law. Look at what Jesus said about them at the Mount of Blessings, He said when referring to them, "You have heard." Why would Christ say that about the Ten? That is odd isn't it? Why didn't He say, "God commanded us." No. He treats the Ten rather cavalier, don't you think? Then He makes His point, "but I say." With this, Christ is taking authority over the old law and the Ten. He is now bringing in HIs OWN covenant--the eternal one.
This law is better and exponentially of a higher standard because Jesus, soon after this, says we must be perfect--even as our father in heaven is perfect. Now can you imagine having a standard that high? The old covenant was perfect for Israel for it was supposed to BRING Israel into the time of Christ when the New and everlasting covenant would be established. Theses old laws, they were a springboard and signpost to point to the Messiah so they would know WHO He was when He came.
So with the statement "But I say," Jesus is taking supreme authority and bringing in the New law. Is Jesus taking away from the old? NO! He doesn't say--you can now be covetous, you can now commit adultery and kill! NO! Absolutely not. So what is happening?
Jesus is bringing in a higher law that says--no hate, no lust, do good to your enemy. These other laws were laws of negativity--"don't do." The new law is of Spirit! It takes a sin such as adultery and EXPANDS it. No lust!
When Jesus fulfilled the old law with all its 613 commandments, the moral laws were expanded not retracted. So instead of one day of physical rest, Christ brought in ALL days of spiritual rest! He did to the Sabbath law (the 3rd/4th commandment) what He had done to the other commandments--improved them! Brought them up to the top shelf! They had been a rather low standard. (Just one in seven days we rest in God? No more--now EVERY day with rest in Christ.) Christ expanded it--He did not do away with the Sabbath, but BECAME in HIs flesh the Sabbath day.
Do we now still have a physical rest day? Well, St. Paul tells us that if we wish to have one--we can! There is no law in the New Covenant that forbids a physical rest, so that is open to the conscience of the believer. But since the instigation of the New Covenant, the gentiles now can enter (and without circumcision.) What rules do the gentiles have to keep? The Council of Jerusalem in Acts tell us-- we abstain from blood and from sexual immorality. There is nothing about sabbath keeping. In fact, to truly keep the sabbath for the Jew, you HAD to be circumcised for that was the sign of the covenant. If someone were not circumcised they were not a part of the Old Covenant of Moses with the Ten Commandments.
So, Christians (including the Catholics) understand that the New Covenant does not forbid a physical sabbath rest. But it also does not require it either. These were fulfilled in Christ and made better. Our rest in Christ daily IS the expansion of the sabbath commandment. WE ARE keeping it when we daily rest in Christ.
"Look at what Jesus said about them at the Mount of Blessings, He said when referring to them, "You have heard." Why would Christ say that about the Ten? That is odd isn't it? Why didn't He say, "God commanded us." No. He treats the Ten rather cavalier, don't you think? Then He makes His point, "but I say." With this, Christ is taking authority over the old law and the Ten. He is now bringing in HIs OWN covenant--the eternal one."
When Jesus said "Ye have HEARD, and it was Said" He was not refering to the ten commandments at all. If He had, He would have said "It Is Written" like He does say when refering to what is written. Jesus here is refering to the terrible interpretation placed on the law by the Jewish leaders. 2054 (regarding the sermon on the mount: "He (Jesus) unfolded the demands of the (Ten) commandments."
"When Jesus fulfilled the old law with all its 613 commandments..."
Not according to your Catechism: 2056 "...They (ten commandments) were written by the finger of God, unlike the other commandments written by Moses."
"Jesus is bringing in a higher law that says--no hate, no lust, do good to your enemy. These other laws were laws of negativity--"don't do." The new law is of Spirit! It takes a sin such as adultery and EXPANDS it. No lust!"
It should be obvious the law had become misunderstood by the time of Christ. The people by that time had lost the spirit of the law and therefore Jesus did fulfill (make fuller) or as you say He EXPANDED on it. But you at the same time imply that this was something new, as though lusting was somethin that was ok before Jesus. Of couse I think you are aware that lusting is in the same category as coveting, such as thou shall not covet thy neighbors goods or his wife? As your Catechism is clear: The ten commandments are to be interpreted by Love the fulness of the law (2055). God who is Love does not change. Love in the Old Testament is the same as Love in the New!
"Do we now still have a physical rest day? Well, St. Paul tells us that if we wish to have one--we can!"
This is a prime example of talking past former Adventists and Protestants! According to your own Catechism it is LAW that has "grave obligations", "fundamentaly imutable", "oblige always and everywhere", and "no one can dispense from them." You can NOT say it is "open to the conscience of the believer."
"Our rest in Christ daily IS the expansion of the sabbath commandment. WE ARE keeping it when we daily rest in Christ. "
It is clear in Scripture that we rest in Christ everyday. This is not new, Hebrews 3 and 4 record for us very nicely that this "rest" that is still available to us today is the same "rest" that was offered to Israel of which they failed to enter into due to their disobedience and unbelief. The Seventh Day Sabbath is a symbol of this rest, the same rest day that was created at creation, of which the author, assuming Paul, referred to in Hebrews! Which should also make very clear that the 4th commandment was MUCH more than a mere day of physical rest.
Arik,
I don't know what to say but, as always, we will have to agree to disagree. Blessings.
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