Thursday, May 14, 2009

The Ten Commandments and Abortion

Once a close SDA relative of mine told me that if the entire Bible was found to be phony, if everything on earth and heaven disappeared that the Ten Commandments would still be there. He even insisted that God Himself is subject to His own laws, THE TEN COMMANDMENTS.


Adventists build a great deal of their remnant status doctrine from the Revelation 12 text that says the remnant are those who keep the commandments of God and the testimony of Jesus. Somehow keeping Sabbath (4th commandment) proves that their church alone fulfills this prophecy because all other denominations keep only nine of the Ten Commandments (they don’t rest on Saturday, but worship on Sunday--breaking the fourth commandment.) 


While I would dismiss the premise on many levels, for argument sake, let’s analyze this idea. 


Adventists claim they keep ALL ten. 


We could spend some time explaining how teaching all Ten Commandments is vastly different from the text that claims the remnant keep all ten. So do all members of the church honor their parents? No one has ever committed adultery? or stolen? Do Adventists keep ALL Ten Commandments? My guess is no. So preaching all ten is very different from keeping them and if they don’t keep them ALL perfectly--then they are no different than anyone else. They just fail at keeping ten instead of fail at keeping nine. But that is not the point I want to make.


Adventist do not even believe in all Ten Commandments. They have flagrantly thrown out the sixth commandment (Commandment 5 for Catholics.) “Thou shalt not kill.”


Adventists have no doctrine against abortion. They have a wishy-washy text that suggest “guidelines” for abortion--it is not even listed under “official statements” on their website:


http://www.adventist.org/beliefs/guidelines/main_guide1.html


The text of the guidelines are carefully crafted to allow for members to be either pro-choice or pro-life. I know, I was on the 1988 committee held at Loma Linda University, chaired by Albert Whiting that sent recommendations to the GC Executive Committee that ended up being the 1992 Abortion Guidelines.


The guidelines do not state that abortion is wrong, that it is against the fourth commandment. It contains expressions like, “Abortion is one of the tragic dilemmas of human fallenness.... Attitudes of condemnation are inappropriate in those who have accepted the gospel." The Adventists would NEVER suggest this sentence for the fourth commandment. “The decision to worship on Sunday is a tragic dilemma of human fallenness... Attitudes of condemnation for those who choose to worship on Sunday are inappropriate in those who have accepted the gospel.”


Adventists do not seem to have a problem with standing firm for the fourth, but not the sixth commandment. The published abortion guidelines are practically immaterial because they are a “front” for a hospital system that can choose to abide or disregard them. Some Adventist hospitals perform abortions -on-demand and are used by doctors to even do late-term abortions. 


The church and its members are intimately connected with the abortion business. SDA Pastor George Gainer presented a paper at Loma Linda University in 1988 at an ethics meeting chaired by David Larson. It reported the story of how the SDA Hawaiian Conference paved the way for legalized abortion in that state that eventually spilled over to the mainland’s Roe vs. Wade decision. Adventists have ping-ponged back and forth through its history on the abortion issue. Adventists pioneers taught abortion was nefarious murder. Then it flew to the other side where during the 1960's the General Conference President, Neil Wilson, made a public statement that because of world overpopulation the Adventist church comes down on the side of legalized abortion. 


In 2000 I was told by Dr. George Reid (director of the SDA Biblical Research Institute a theological branch of the General Conference) that not only is the church pro-choice but that “Washington Adventist Hospital had become an abortion mill.” Jan Paulsen’s secretary also told me that Adventists are “pro-choice.”


Most recently, Irving “Bud” Feldkamp, owner of the nation’s largest privately-owned abortion chain (17 family planning clinics) and member of the Adventist church made news. His two daughters, two sons-in-law and five grandchildren were killed in a Montana plane crash.


http://www.christiannewswire.com/news/646579835.html

http://news.adventist.org/2009/03/in-us-three-adventis.html


This is how the Adventist News Network reported it:


Three Seventh-day Adventist families are among the 14 victims killed in a March 22 airplane crash in Butte, Montana. All three families were members or regular attendees at congregations in Northern California (they also reported that several of the victims had attended SDA colleges.) ...Church officials said the tragedy was a loss to the Adventist community. 


While we would not expect the SDA church to announce two of the families were children of Bud Feldkamp, notorious employer of abortionists who continue to butcher thousands of innocent children and who most likely gives blood money to the church, the fact that the family held such close ties to Adventism makes one wonder why the SDA church hasn’t loudly protested against Feldkamp's profession.


Dr. Edward Allred, also raised SDA and graduated at an Adventist University, was for many years the nations foremost abortionist and is rumored to have sold some of his abortion clinics to Bud Feldkamp.


Those who believe Adventists to be the only church to promote all Ten Commandments need to rethink their position. As long as they continue to cave on the sixth commandment, as long as they allow abortions in their hospitals and don’t stand against the abortionists and abortion clinic owners who consider themselves SDA, they really have no higher ground position on the Ten Commandments than any other church. 


Those Adventists who think like my relative are really in trouble because they are basing their beliefs on sandy ground. So if you are looking for a church who keeps the Ten Commandments in order to the be the official remnant church of Revelation 12, Adventism would not be it. The Seventh-day Adventist church is making a very false claim. They could not be the remnant any more than any church who--as they insist the prophecy states doesn't keep all the Ten Commandments.


Adventists really only keep nine.....

39 comments:

clifford said...

I really treasure the seventh Day Adventist church because of its firm stand on Gods laws(commandments) and hereby would like to correct that the church do keep all the ten commandments including the one in Question of not killing which abortion is one of the killing methods plus others not mentioned, the fact that the church has not (as you claim) come out clear as compared to the catholic about abortion does not mean that the church promotes it, no. Abortion, Murder etc are all sorts of killing that the commandment says. Bye the way do you know that even hating your brother is killing? so killing is not limited to physical action alone.

That is the stand and teaching of the church, but i would like to say that if you see some members of the church not doing as per the instruction given in the bible know that that is his/her own stand but not the church. Also remember that all have sinned and are sinning every now and then, but in need of the saving grace of God. i humbly request you not to generalize an individuals acts or deeds to the church (whichever church, be it Catholic, AIC, Pentecostal, SDA etc. Gods commandments are there to stay as long as we are still in this world of sin until when Jesus will come for the saints and Satan destroyed.

Teresa Beem said...

Clifford,

The official church position is that of pro-choice. That is against the 6th commandment. So it is intellectually dishonest to claim the SDA church keeps all ten. The Seventh-day Adventist church does NOT in doctrine or in corporate behavior promote all TEN, only nine.

Therefore their premise of being the remnant based on keeping all ten is not factual.

Alex said...

I totally agree that SDA's have a very embrassing legacy of promoting Sabbath way above and beyond all else.

I you could also include their deceptive tactics on evangelization and Ellen Whites writing's status as being dishonest. ...so I guess now their only keeping 8 commandments.

Thank you for pointing this out Teresa. I feel that this issue really needs to be brought out amongst Adventists who seem all to ready to sweep it under the rug.

To Clifford:
Can you provide any offical statements from the SDA GC that specifically renounce abortion? Can you site any active pro-life work done by the denomination or any Adventist pro-life groups. I believe that we should know them by thier fruit. So where's the fruit Cliff?

God bless,
Alex

JesusOverIsrael said...

this is an amazing post to me.

just yesterday i was praying to discover an SDA who entered the RCC!

i had heard about the crash in montana, right into a catholic cemetery, but never realized it was an adventist abortionist!

thanks for this public service!

PS can you explain why the Catechism shifts the sabbath commandment to #4, omits #3, and then divides #10 into two?

CONNECTIONS said...

all i would like to say is "thank you". i went to an sda high school and hated every minute of it. a lot of things are very sketchy, they hide a lot under the rug and are very quick to condemn everyone else. love your brother? i think not. i married my husband and we starting going to any amazing church, not sda, and it is amazing how the Lord opened my eyes. honestly i was very jaded to the idea of "church" but again thank you God that he gave me my husband and my church. i think that there are a lot of old school sda members that are very blinded. as a matter of fact my dad started to got to my new church and felt very ashamed because he was taught sda is the only way to heaven. humm i think not. if that is they case then that is predestination..hello. abortion is wrong and it is our job to vote accordingly. thank you teresa..God bless for your braveness

David said...

Okay, well here's my opinion. :]
My mom always taught me that God has given us the gift of free will, the chance to make our own decisions. Obviously, He has also given us a set of rules to live by, a set of rules that if followed would have an immensely positive effect in our lives as well as the lives of those around us. Having said that, how can anyone tell another what choices they need to make, when God has already given us the freedom to decide for ourselves? Even if someone is making the decision to take the life of another, be it child or adult, it is not in our place to pass judgment. Personally, I believe that abortion is awful. It's terrible that it has become so easy for anyone to take the life of another :/ But again, it is not my choice. Judgment is God's alone. So, where am I going with all this rambling? I guess what I'm trying to say is that maybe the Adventist Church is just trying to be prudent. On this subject, the Church mentions, "Attitudes of condemnation are inappropriate in those who have accepted the gospel." Of course, we cannot turn a blind eye when dealing with abortion. In reality the Adventist church only condones abortion in the event that there may be "significant threats to the pregnant woman's life, serious jeopardy to her health, severe congenital defects carefully diagnosed in the fetus, and pregnancy resulting from rape or incest." Now, I don't know if anyone reading this believes and accepts the Bible in its entirety, but if you do, ponder this: Have you ever wondered why God ordered many of his faithful leaders to, (i.e. Joshua?) or why He destroyed entire cities, women, children and all(Sodom and Gomorrah)? Well, us humans, in all our sinfulness, we've done some pretty bad things. Things like incest. Incest has been a cause of child deformities for some time now (chances of bad chromosomes meeting bad chromosomes increases when family affairs occur). Sodom and Gomorrah present a fair example. Do you see where I'm going with this?
just a thought.

Teresa Beem said...

David,

God said to Israel, "I have set before you this day life and death (freedom of choice), therefore CHOOSE LIFE that you and your descendants may live."

God gives us a choice but He also tells us to obey HIS choice. Abortion is murder. If you believe it is simply a matter of choice, then what would you say about Stalin killing millions of Russians? Can we not condemn those murders?

A Christian church must stand up for the dignity of the incredible gift of life. If it can't stand up for the unborn innocents out there, who will it stand up for?

Anonymous said...

Here you are acting like the SDA church "promotes" abortion. I don't know of ANY church that promotes abortion. Also, a person who is pro-choice doesn't mean they're throwing out "Thou shalt not kill." It means they believe in free will, just as God gave us. If an individual doctor decides to perform abortions, that is on his head, not his church's head.

Mena said...

BTW, I am the anonymous from the previous posts that has a problem with your anger. I will start using my name.

Anonymous said...

Come on friends, we are missing the point! The issue about individual SDA members practicing abortion and then using that to "prove" that the SDA church does not keep "all" the ten commandments is a flawed approach. the question is as individuals, regadless of which denominations we belong to, we must love God enough to be subjected to all his ten commandments as a rule of life. And that should not be confused with legalism either.

It could have been better to read the Bible in depth from the beginning and not 40 years later, because it is apparent that the recent discoveries has not shed any freshh revelation. Friends, no one has a patent over the truth. It is pointless to reject truth because "a certain church does this and that".

If one has a problem with the ten commandments, they must attack or question God who is the author of the law and not the Sabbatarians or the SDA who are mere messengers who may out of their human weakness break some of the commandments that they are so zealosuly preaching.

If one wants to leave or join the SDA or any Sabbatarian group that is their own choce, but the question that remains is "have they kept ALL of the ten commandments?". Remember that the covenant is with God and not the SDA or any organosation. It MAY be okay Not be be a Seventh Day Adventist but IT IS DEFINATELY NOT OKAY TO BREAK ANY OF GOD'S TEN COMMANDMENTS. Any indepth Bible study within or without the SDA will reveal that! But as for me i decided to make God (the law giver) the ultimate person that i am answerable to regarding his commandments!

Pula Solomon Khunou

Robert said...

I agree, the SDA church isn't perfect, but the point of the SDA church was never claiming perfection, but striving towards, with one of the first steps being, we need to keep the 10 commandments and follow the Bible. The SDA never was pro abortion, and though I believe it needs to stand against it, i do not condemn it saying it doesn't keep the 10 commandments. The church isn't sweeping things under the rug, if you ask honest questions you get honest answers. If you felt slighted, lied to, and purposefully side tracked by a church member or school pastor, blame the persons own shortcomings and not the church. They're are many people claiming to be SDA, while disagreeing with SDA's stand on things. These people are in many positions in the church and give they're belief and opinion to others.

Anonymous said...

I study cults, most religions are. The SDA religion wrote their own Bible(The Clear Word, now called a devotional) putting Ellen G. White's false teachings in it. Someone new to Christianity would not know it had been changed. It changed what the Bible originally said about many things, (especially denying the diety of Jesus) trying to show that White was a true prophet. This is heresy! Any faith that minimizes Jesus as our Lord and Savior is a false faith. They also teach that Jesus was Michael, Soul sleep was invented to make sense of her false investigative judgement belief. Those born before 1844 have been saved by Jesus dying on the cross. Those born afterwards are still being judged based on how well they follow the ten commandments. This is extremely false. They also have issues with perfectionism. The SDA church is a cult, why would you risk your salvation following it?

Robert said...

SDA is not a cult we are not perfect and we don't keep all 10 commandments we try to do are best put then we are human born into sin and we don't teach or believe that those born after are saved for keeping the 10 commandments we do believe that Jesus is are savior before and after. on Ellen G White find all the prophets in the bible and tell me that they never made a mistake or sinned or that it never happened as they said ....r.p

Soul said...

Anonymous--could you please cite chapter and verse where the Clear Word denies the deity of Christ? I'm an Adventist who opposes the publication of the Clear Word because of all the interpolations but I've never seen anything like that.

Adventists in our time most certainly do believe Jesus is God; few of the church's founders did, but things change with Bible study over time.

While I agree with the title of this blog, it is most disingenuous to take the remarks of a few individuals and the practices of some hospitals and call the church "pro-choice."

The church's official stance is that abortion is to be discouraged, with the caveat that cases involving serious birth defects or rape/incest are left to the conscience of the individual. That, friends and opponents, is a pro-life position--at least from the perspective of American politics.

The Adventist church has a habit of staying out of politics except where they have to do with religious liberty issues. Individual members are and have always been free to do whatever advocacy they want.

If you want all Adventists to become socially conservative Republicans and start throwing stones at pro-choice Democrats, I'm sorry, I don't think that's helpful.

Not only does the Adventist position compare favorably with the attitude of evangelicals towards pro-choice people--an attitude which is itself a barrier to Christ the gospel--it has at least as much biblical support. In Levitical law, an unborn child's life was not equal to that of other people. (See Exodus 21:22 for an example.)

FWIW I'm pro-life, but for reasons of natural law, not Scripture. I've counseled enough victims of sexual abuse that I think the Adventist church's position is about as far as a church should go in the spirit of Christ.

L. A. Mathewson said...

You are spot on about this one. I am a life-long SDA. I discovered the fact that the church as not anti-abortion years ago and was very disappointed. No church is infallible. But this is a major error and no doubt somebody will give account for this. I think the Christian stance should be to judge the action, but not the actor. That is to take a stand that abortion is wrong, it takes a life. But should support the woman either through a pregnancy and into a healthier and holier lifestyle or to offer the forgiveness through Christ to those who have erred in having had an abortion.

Richard Hurcomb said...

Hi Teresa,
Just read your original post on the subject of SDA's and abortion. I have not done the research, so I don't know if what you have said is true or not, but on the assumption that you are correct in your post, I will make my remarks based on your charge against Adventists.
If what you say is correct, then the Seventh Day Adventist church denominational headquarters has a problem. The SDA's hospitals that practice abortion have a problem along with the doctors employed by those hospitals who practice abortion. This problem I refer to is that they are violating the 6th commandment as you say. But in spite of this violation, the SDA's do not teach their people to have or not to have an abortion. Where as the churches who worship on Sunday actually teach their people to worship on Sunday and to denigrate the Sabbath. Not all SDA's are abortionists. But all Sunday keeping Christians who don't observe the 7th day Sabbath, violate the 4th commandment. Do you see what I'm getting at? There is a difference in this argument. Yes, perhaps the SDA denomination headquarters is afraid of the doctors and the hospitals, just as they were afraid of the evangelicals back in the 1950's when they announced to their people that we believed in the Trinity. That was real news to many SDAs at the time. For many and perhaps most SDA's at that time did not believe in the Trinity. You'll remember that Mrs. White said that this would happen. That our denomination would appear to be falling but it would still be intact when Jesus comes back. The Revelation 12 reference is picked up by SDA's as long as SDA's are abiding in Christ and following Him to the best of their understanding and ability. But as Peter pulled back when the Jewish leaders joined their Gentile group, and Paul had to correct Peter publicly, so our denomination will have to be corrected publicly as well. But the remnant will still be there. Where as in the Sunday Churches, they cannot be called the remnant church for they fight against the 4th commandment. The SDA's are on the wrong side of the 6th commandment, but it is a denominational problem not a problem for the person who is in the denomination who abides with the 6th commandment.
But to be as fair as I can on this subject, I must tell you that there are many Sunday keeping pastors who rest on the 7th day and honor the Sabbath as a rest day, purposely not cutting their grass or cleaning their homes or churches on Saturday in order to honor God on His Sabbath. But they cannot tell their congregations this bit of news, for if they were found out, they could loose their position and their retirement.
Revelation 12 is referring to a people who keep the commandments of God. If SDA's as individuals do that they're fine. If not, well,... they are not a part of those who keep the commandments of God. It's just that simple. But keep in mind, no SDA pastor that I've ever heard of teaches his congregation to practice abortion. I understand that there is sin in omission, but at least abortion is not overtly taught as a good thing to do, where as Sunday keeping is taught by Sunday keeping pastors as a good thing to do.
I hope this helps in the discussion.
May the Grace of God and the Peace of Jesus Christ be with you in the fellowship of the Holy Spirit.

Teresa Beem said...

Richard, the premise is that the SDA church TEACHES that it is the remnant of Revelation, only they do not notice that the Remnant KEEPS the commandments of God not teaches it.

That in and of itself should discredit what they teach, for who keeps all the commandments? Surely you would not argue that Adventists keep all the commandments?

They do not even teach them! When was the last time you heard a sermon that is is wrong to kill the unborn? Where is that in their doctrines? No where. That is my point.

ReliOn said...

I am a SDA, but have come across a few things that have discouraged me. They claim to be the remnent church...keeping all ten commandments. I was invited to a Christmas party where they play a game I played at work called Dirty Santa, but they call it something ele. The thing that got me is Thou shall not covet, but in this game if I got a gift and you wanted it you could take it from me. Some may say its only a game, but if we are true commandment keeping church then we will not want or expose others to going against this commandment. I have decided not to attend church and have church in my own home with my 2 boys and anyone else that wants to be come over. There are enough things to influence us and lead us on the wrong path; we don't need to see it happening in the church. I wish you all the best of luck. God bless you all!

Anonymous said...

Teresa,
I have noticed you claim the practice of a few is representative of the whole church.

What I do not understand is why you don't hold the Catholic Church to the same standard you hold Adventist to.

It is a well known fact that Catholic Physicians from Catholic hospitals actually refer their patients that want abortions to other hospitals that are willing to do them. Thus washing their Mother Hospital's hands of the guilt, similar to what Pilot did to Christ, but in no way clearing their sin in Christ's eyes.

It is much like Catholics defending the Inquisition by using the deaths in Rwanda against Adventist and failing to mention that Rwanda's problem was started by the Jesuit Arm of the Catholic Church to begin with. Or failing to mention that almost all unrest in the world has been driven by Jesuits in order to forward the goal of the Papacy, and that is to form a Church controlled state.

Or why don't we look at the Croatian issue, where the people were forced to join mother Rome or lose their lives.

There is only one force that uses force to join his ranks and that belongs to Satan.

Teresa Beem said...

Anonymous,

You are confusing corrupt people with the church stand.

Yes, there are individual Catholics who go around church dogma and sin AGAINST their beliefs. For 2,000 years Catholics have been solidly Pro-life--this is a DOGMA and cannot be changed for any reason. These flow from the mouth of God in His Son Christ and was taught to the Apostles who then taught it to the people. It is an unbroken doctrine since the beginning. If individual hospitals defy Rome and their Catholicity, that is WRONG and must be stopped.

When found out these hospitals loose their Catholic identity. They cannot keep the Catholic name.

However, Adventism is quite different. They do not come out and clearly state that abortion is a mortal sin and cuts you off from the grace of God. They do not stand firm against it. In fact, they are officially pro-choice and their hospitals are free to perform abortions if they choose. The General Conference will not withdraw Adventist identity from a hospital that performs abortions. You do not become a "bad" Adventist from having or performing or in any way helping someone to have an abortion.

If you even VOTE for someone who will be instrumental in abortion legislation, if you have an abortion, recommend an abortion, perform an abortion or HELP anyone to have an abortion it is a MORTAL sin to a Catholic and they are automatically excommunicated.

That is a strong position.

Anonymous said...

Matthew 7 1-5

"Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use it, it will be measured to you. WHY DO YOU LOOK AT THE SPECK OF YOUR BROTHER'S EYE AND PAY NO ATTENTION TO THE PLANK IN YOUR OWN EYE? How can you say to your brother, "Let me take the speck out of your eye," when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye."

As a human being, we don't have the right to judge anyone. It is God's job, not ours.

Brian Hyde said...

Knowing Christ Jesus through the gifts of the Holy Spirit and the fruit of the Holy Spirit alone, has been rejected by SDA. Seeking after the Mosaic law can never produce the glory of the Holy Spirit’s virtues, life and salvation. Abiding in he “doctrine of Christ” by continual faith makes the regenerate complete in Him 2 John 1:9. The Lord Jesus Christ uses the personal pronoun “My” when referring to His doctrine, distinct from the Old Covenant Mosaic Law.

John 13:34-35 (NASB) "A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you, that you also love one another. By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another."

The NEW COMMANDMENTS in the NEW COVENANT are LOVE GOD AND LOVE OTHERS. These are the COMMANDMENTS that Christians will be keeping.. TO LOVE GOD AND OTHERS.

Under the Gospel of Grace any 'commands' given in the NT are there as spiritual incitements or admonitions fulfilled in us by the Holy Spirit as we are led by the Spirit.

In Peace

Brian Hyde said...

John 13:34-35 (NASB) "A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you, that you also love one another. By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another."

The NEW COMMANDMENTS in the NEW COVENANT are LOVE GOD AND LOVE OTHERS. These are the COMMANDMENTS that Christians will be keeping.. TO LOVE GOD AND OTHERS.

.Knowing Christ Jesus through the gifts of the Holy Spirit and the fruit of the Holy Spirit alone, has been rejected by SDA

Seeking after the Mosaic law can never produce the glory of the Holy Spirit’s virtues, life and salvation.

Abiding in the “doctrine of Christ” by continual faith makes the regenerate complete in Him 2 John 1:9. The Lord Jesus Christ uses the personal pronoun “My” when referring to His doctrine, distinct from the Old Covenant Mosaic Law.


“My works”
Revelation 2:26

“My Sheep”
Luke 15:6
John 15:26-27; 21:16-17

“My House”
Matthew 21:13
Mark 11:17
Luke 14:23; 19:46
John 2:16: 14:2

“My Doctrine”
John 7:16

“My Yoke”
Matthew 11:29-30
John 10:16, 27; 18:37

“My Kingdom”
Matthew 26:29
Luke 22:30
John 18:36

“My Name”
Matthew 18:20
Mark 9:37, 41
Luke 9:42
John 14:13, 26

“My Record”
John 8:14

My Commandments
John 14:15, 21; 15:10,12
My Peace
John 14:27
My Life
John 10: 15, 17

My Way
John 8:51; 16:5

My Word
Mark 8:38; 13:31
Luke 6:47 9:26
21:33
John 5:24: 47

It is the Lords New Covenant Way and His Life that was given, that made the Law keepers of His day, the Scribes and Pharisess want to kill Him. They could not see how the Law was fulfilled totally in Him, that they might cease from their carnal efforts, and find their rest in Him, by continual Faith in Him.

acurrier said...

Teresa, what denomination are you in? What is your stand on the Spirit of Prophecy? I've done a little digging in the Bible to see what I could find on the issue of abortion, and my conclusion is that it is an inconclusive issue for me, at this point. I can't find a solid Scriptural backing for the idea that abortion breaks the 6th commandment. While I do personally believe abortion is wrong, I could not with full confidence defend that from the Bible. Also, is your full premise against the SDA church this issue of abortion? Speaking for myself, I'd have to ignore a lot of Scripture and confirmation of the Spirit of Prophecy to reject the Adventist church

acurrier said...

@Bryan Hyde
I would respectfully point out that Jesus Himself delivered the Ten Commandments from Mt. Sinai. Do you believe that it's alright to steal? To take God's name in vain? To worship other gods? When Jesus gave a new commandment of love, he was not changing anything that had been established in the Old Testament, He was only brushing away the corrupt attitudes on the Law that prevailed among the Jewish leaders of His day, namely that the law was purely a legal matter and not relational and loving at its core.

He always upheld the Old Testament, saying, "Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven." Matthew 5:17-19. He then goes on to show that the commandments concerning murder and adultery can be broken in the heart. This is far from discarding them as part of the Mosaic Law that was done away at His death. Nothing in the New Testament abrogates the Ten Commandments. The Law of Love is exemplified in the Ten Commandments, and, as you point out, we are empowered to live this out by the Holy Spirit.

Brian H said...

“I would respectfully point out that Jesus Himself delivered the Ten Commandments from Mt. Sinai.”

And, I would respectfully point out that Christ also appeared to Adam and commanded them not to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. He appeared to Abraham and commanded him to be circumcised. Does that mean we Christians are to obey the same commandments? Of course not! As your own “prophet” says “time place and circumstances must be taken into consideration.”

“Do you believe that it's alright to steal? To take God's name in vain? To worship other gods?”

Clearly you don’t understand grace or the law of Christ; otherwise you would not ask such ridiculous questions (which by the way is standard defence of those who depend on Mosaic Law for obedience). Kindly reread my words above and you will see why your question is ridiculous.

“When Jesus gave a new commandment of love, he was not changing anything that had been established in the Old Testament,”

Ah, but you are wrong when you claim He did not change anything. It is a new covenant He instituted and with it a total reframing of all past law that was in principle still relevant. If not then you and I must build a temple and offer sacrifices.

“He was only brushing away the corrupt attitudes on the Law that prevailed among the Jewish leaders of His day, namely that the law was purely a legal matter and not relational and loving at its core.”

This I agree. We need a relationship with God not with law If we get the first right the second will follow spontaneously albeit we may not get things right all the time.

Brian H said...

Continued

“He always upheld the Old Testament, saying, "Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfil. For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven." Matthew 5:17-19.”

Again, with all due respect, you should pay attention to time place and circumstances. Christ was referring here to the Mosaic Law. Christ was a Jew under the Law and teaching people under the Law. But when the “heavens and earth” eventually passed away in AD 70, then that system of Law came to an end. Clearly you are sinning against your conscience because if your interpretation is correct then you must keep all the Law (600 plus laws) not least, by the way, the sacrificial laws connected with the Sabbath. You have no authority to separate the Sabbath from the law of blood sacrifices mandated by God for the seventh-day Sabbath. Are you doing that? Of course not! Therefore you are breaking the Sabbath law as it appears in the Torah, every week. Think about that.

Brian H said...

Continued

“He then goes on to show that the commandments concerning murder and adultery can be broken in the heart.”

Correct, and this is the standard to which Christ raised all law (not just ten of them) – the Law of Christ is written on the heart by the Spirit of Christ in fulfilment of Jeremiah 31:31-33 and according to Romans 8:3.

Brian H said...

This is far from discarding them as part of the Mosaic Law that was done away at His death.”

Well was the Mosaic Law done away with at His death or not? My Bible says yes. Yours seems to say no. Notwithstanding your claims to the contrary, 2 Corinthians 3 makes it plain that the law in that form (written on stone and in ink in the book of the law) was indeed done away with! You fail to recognise that divine revelation is progressive.

Gal 3:24 "Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith." (KJV)
1. Gal 3:24 "Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith." (KJV)

The Law was a schoolmaster to bring the “children” of Israel to Christ. Once Christ came there was no further need for the schoolmaster, right? Adventists are still under a schoolmaster and it is high time they graduated from kindergarten don’t you think?

“Nothing in the New Testament abrogates the Ten Commandments.”
Yes and no. The Law pointed to Christ. It is in Him that the law is fulfilled and finds expression. It also finds expression in us if, of course, we are in Him. And it continues to be fulfilled in us spiritually by the agency not of external written law but the Holy Spirit. The OC was about behaviour; the NC is about attitude underlying behaviour. Big difference.

“The Law of Love is exemplified in the Ten Commandments,”

Of course it is but you limit love to ten laws which is spiritual tunnel vision. The Ten Commandments were simply representative of the entire old covenant which contained a forest of laws affecting every area of life. But Adventists choose to ignore those and also the 800 or more laws that appear in the NT in their desire to idolise ten laws. If you examine the ten commandments they are prohibitions against acted offences, hence, “Thou shalt not” You cannot proscribe God‘s love into 10 laws which were targeted at rebellious behaviour. His character is infinitely broader than a list of dos and don’ts, holy though they were. Consider this: in Heaven the angels do not need law because love is their very nature. It will be the same with the redeemed. They won’t need the Ten Commandments in heaven because their very nature will be love. This means their will is in total harmony with God’s will and therefore they need no instruction in righteousness. That’s why Pre-fall Adam and Eve did not need to be given the Ten Commandments in Eden or need to be told to obey a code of ten words. They did by nature God’s will which will embraces all law. And that’s the intent of the New Covenant--to bring us to that place where we do by nature God’s will. And that is already our inheritance in Christ (Col 2:10) If it is still Mosaic Law (or any part thereof) that Christians are under, then ALL of the Law must be kept, including the sacrificial laws, because the Law is a unit and its binding obligations cannot be circumscribed in any way. It is either all or nothing, as Paul and James warn.

Brian H said...

Continued

“and, as you point out, we are empowered to live this out by the Holy Spirit”

Yes, but your response seems to show that you don’t really believe or understand how the Spirit does that. You don’t seem to trust that the Holy Spirit will work in your heart both to will and to DO of His good pleasure (Phil 2:13) which is, after all, His will. No, friend, you want to limit “love” within ten laws and you simply cannot do that. The work of grace is where the Spirit goes to the ROOT of the problem and changes our attitudes not just our behaviour so that we produce the right FRUIT. We must be changed on the inside. I am not against the Ten Commandments; they are good laws to be instituted among the unconverted to keep them in order, but the converted have a new heart and are LED by the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus (Rom 8:3). Consequently they are the sons of God. This is a righteousness that has been revealed that is apart from law and yet prophesied by the law (Romans 6:14). Why is it righteousness APART from law? Because it is by grace alone through faith alone and NOT by works.

acurrier said...

Well, you've insulted me thoroughly in your responses and seem to miss every point I was trying to make. I could address everything you've said, but the discussion has already turned hostile. I bid you adieu.

Anonymous said...

What amaze me about some people is the fact that they want to judge ALL. Judge not or ye be judge hmm the text ring a bell. So let see you guy are against Sda churches right because you guys believe that All sda members agree with abortion last time I check we all will be giving a separate account for the lives we live here on earth. So to make a long story short that particular hospital including the many many others that ate under every other religion has commit murder matter of fact you have commit murder with your thoughts. So who are you to call anyone Lost. Leave it to Jesus who is perfect you are not you only could strive to be your church is not and left to justify us is Jesus. amen

Teresa Beem said...

Anon,
Most Adventists are pro-life. No one said differently. Most Adventists are not aware that their church sponsored hospitals do abortions and often on demand.

Also, keep in mind that God is merciful. All you have to do is come to Him and repent, turn from your wicked ways and you shall be saved. Abortion isn't the unpardonable sin. I don't think anyone here believes that.

No one is judging individual people, but we are supposed to judge institutions and doctrines and even shepherds (leaders) as Jesus told us that by their fruits you will know them.

The SDA church is officially pro-choice. That is a horrible horrible fruit. Some SDA hospitals do abortions on demand and the church leadership knows it. Again these are rotten fruits. We must, indeed, are obligated to stand up against this and call our brothers and sisters to repentance. It would be a sin against our Christian brothers if we didn't'.

Brian Hyde said...

I agree Teresa, its not about individual Adventists carrying out abortions, rather its about corporate guilt. Remember that this is an organisation that makes exceedingly loud and bold claims that it is the ONLY church God recognises in the world today (hence its use of terminology viz "the remnant")thereby excluding all other Christians. Given such high claims the SDA organisation should practice what it preaches.

Anonymous said...

Who changed the sabbath to Sun-day from Saturday?
The papacy. Research it.
SDA has been infiltrated by the Jesuits, just as every other denomination of the Christian church has. That was/is why the Society of Jesus was created. Their purpose is to bring ALL protest-ants back to the beast - the unholy Roman catholic church.
This is all verifiable with a little time spent researching.
Please don't generalize and think and judge on a collective basis. God won't be judging that way on the day of judgement. Look at individuals. Test their fruit.
All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.
Satan decieves the whole world. That includes you and I.

Teresa Beem said...

Anonymous,

Are you wanting to start another subject? If so let me know and we will attempt to address your concerns on another post... God bless, Teresa

Redd Skye said...

It seems strange to me to think if you are "ignorant" of the Sabbath and observe worship on Sunday and it is "suppose" to be wrong, there is no sin or foully, but when you know the "truth" about it and you worship on Sunday still, it's then considered sin. So that means that ignorance of the law is not sin, for example, breaking the law and being arrested for your crime and you say, "I didn't know officer!", Do you think he's going to say oh, no you do, don't let it happen again, or are you still going to be punished for it?

Anonymous said...

I've been Seventh-Day Adventist my whole life and I've never heard of the Clear Word. Lol.

Teresa Beem said...

It's in all the SDA bookstores.

It is in the Bibles section, but it is technically a paraphrase.

http://www.adventistbookcenter.com/clear-word-ebook.html