If you are a former SDA and saw anything about this iPhone video the pope made for the Kenneth Copeland Ministries, you knew Pope Francis threw some red meat to the SDA last-day crowd.
The Adventists think they have a "gotcha" moment. They are all smiles that Ellen White's last day prophecy is being fulfilled within their sight.
But they are wrong.
In fact, rather than proving Ellen White right, this video is a perfect example of showing where Ellen White went very, very wrong.
Let's think about it for a moment. It's not that hard to make a prophecy of the last-day sort. All one would have to do is make a prediction that in the last days children will be disrespectful and immorality will abound (clearly foretold in scripture). And then claim that "when you see these things happen" God wants all His people to purchase the prophet's books.
However, that isn't quite what Ellen White did. Her Great Controversy predictions are a lot easier to recognize because they clearly contradict God's Word. She took a command of Christ and said that if we obey Him, we are part of a great deception.
And rather than prove Ellen's predictions are from God, this situation demands that an Adventist choose this day whom they will believe! For you can't believe both the scripture and Ellen. They are in direct conflict with each other.
Ellen said unity with the body of Christ is a false unity. Yet, Christ desires us all to be one, without divisions. Jesus commanded unity among the believers.
I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd. John 10: 16
[N]ot only for that nation but also for the scattered children of God, to bring them together and make them one. John 11: 52
Before offering His life up to as a sacrifice of redemption, Christ pleaded with the Father to bind His followers in unity.
Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name...so that they may be one as we are one...that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one: John 17: 11, 21, 22
Our Christian unity shows that Jesus is the Christ, Son of the Living God! Our divisions actually do a disservice to our Lord and our witness.
The early church was unified:
All the believers were one in heart and mind. Acts 4: 32
Paul repeatedly told the believers to stay unified, not as a suggestion, but as a command of God!
Just as each of us has one body with many members, and these members do not all have the same function, so in Christ we who are many form one body, and each member belongs to all the others. ...Be devoted to one another in brotherly love. Honor one another above yourselves…Live in harmony with one another. Rom. 12: 4, 5, 10, 16
May the God who gives endurance and encouragement give you a spirit of unity among yourselves as you follow Christ Jesus, Rom. 15:5
For [Jesus Christ] is our peace; in His flesh He has made both groups into one and has broken down the dividing wall, that is, the hostility between us. ...that He might create in Himself one new humanity in place of the two, thus making peace, and might reconcile both groups to God in one body through the cross... Ephesians 2: 14-16
Make every effort to keep the unity of the Spirit through the bond of peace...one Lord, one faith, one baptism...It was he who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers, to prepare God's people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ. Eph. 4: 1, 3, 5, 11-13
And over all these virtues put on love, which binds them all together in perfect unity. Col. 3:14
[S]tand firm in one spirit, with one mind striving side by side for the faith of the gospel. Phi. 1:27
We read in scripture exhortation after exhortation to stay together, without divisions with one spirit, one mind and one faith.
Let's remember Ellen's prophecy of all other churches coming together in a false unity to persecute Seventh-day Adventists for keeping Sabbath. Ellen White was so against Christian unity that she actually prophesied that Christian reconciliation and unity is of the devil!
There is nowhere in scripture that God warns us of a false ecumenical movement. That is complete speculation. There is no proof-text, just a conspiratorial interpretation of the apocalyptic literature. Now, it is possible that there will be a false unity that mimics the true unity of Christians. Sure, but that doesn't negate the words of Christ for the believers to unify.
Therefore we must be very careful not to call a great movement of the Holy Spirit to unify God's people as of the devil for that is blasphemy. In fact Christ said that attributing workings of the Holy Spirit of the devil you are treading on the unforgivable sin!
Watch this carefully before you pass judgment on it as of the devil. Sometimes we must take a step in obedience of faith towards unity and let the Lord miraculously bring truth out of it.
If you are interested, here is the full video:
Ellen White condemns all unity of non-SDAs. Our Blessed Lord commanded it. Which belief is being truly obedient to God? You do the math.
46 comments:
Thank you, Teresa, for this post. I came to your blog just to see if you had commented about this video and here it is! This morning, I saw it posted in my Facebook feed by a SDA friend of mine and it is so sad to see the adventist church in this position of propagating conspiracy theories and division among christians.
Again, thank you for your inspiring words.
If you read scripture… it is pretty clear. God WANTS unity among believers. Ellen White doesn't. Who are you going to believe?
Thanks Claudia. I often wonder if anyone reads my blog. Nice to know there are people out there who do!
I always find it so interesting to see people converted to different religions or denominations. A lot of people fall into one of two categories. You have those that convert and are still cool with the previous denomination, and then you have those that convert and then bash away. It's similar with argumentative people. You have those who can admit when they are wrong and can accept that they were wrong, and you have those that can't admit that they are wrong, and keep arguing, even if they really do know that they were wrong. You seem to have some sort of grudge with the Adventists. You diss every aspect of their beliefs.
I am moderately acquainted with both Catholics and Protestants. I know that the Catholic church for a very long time was run for the sole purpose of getting money. They lied, stole, killed, whatever, to get money. They changed what was in the Bible to better fit the lies that they were telling. Martin Luther called them on 95 things that the church was doing wrong. In the video, Mr. Palmer tells of ONE of the theses that both Catholics and Protestants can now mostly agree to. Does this really make them united? If I agree with one out of 95 things that you say, I would not say that we are united, I would say that we are still far apart. The Catholic church still worships things other than God. They worship people who, while they may have been good people, are not worthy of being prayed to. They claim that the Pope can absolve sin but last time I checked, he's just a man. The Catholic church expects everyone to go to them, yet they cannot admit that they were ever wrong. Palmer's speach was nothing short of propaganda. You are already Catholics, he says, so why not join us. No thanks, I'll study my Bible and find out what it really says.
What an interesting comment anonymous.
This post is about Adventists who seem to never see anything good in whatever the Catholics do. This was a sweet thing for Pope Francis to do… send a brotherly greeting to other non-Catholic brothers in Christ. Yet, as always Doug and many Adventists have to criticize it. And you come here to criticize the fact that I am criticizing Doug for criticizing. Well, seems like we have come full circle. I will stop here and just say blessings to you!
Blessings to you as well. But I want to point out that I neither mentioned Doug Bachelor or Pope Francis in my statement above. I was focusing on Palmer. I am not familiar enough with Bachelor to really comment on him, other that to say that I felt that he brought out some good points, and some of his points were aimed towards Adventist beliefs which I am unfamiliar with. As far as Pope Francis is concerned, I am sure that he is a very good man, with some very strong beliefs. I am sure that he is a Godly man. Did you know that he sent a very similar message to the Muslims? To me, granted I am untrained in these matters, it seems that he is trying to water down the beliefs of everyone. Everyone except the Catholics.
Ms. Been your comment on EGW is completely wrong. First, you need to separate what she saw by ELOHIM and her opinions. She never at anytime stated that ELOHIM showed her visions on the Catholic church. The Protestants view of her time were all against the Catholic Church and this remain until the late 70's. Adventists take their view from the writings or Uriah Smith. Matter of fact EGW wrote late in her life that we will have less to say about the papacy. Testimony to the Ministers p. 112 I am not concern about the new pope because it is ELOHIM'S will that will end this world. I also agree with Anonymous who clearly stated facts about those who love to bash the Church they use to attend. Their are good spiritual minded people in the Catholic Church and once the keep all of ELOHIM'S Commandments, they will be save that is a fact. However it is the Catholic message that is paganistic. The Papacy claims that this office is both the holy father and the son, but strangely they die, ELOHIM and HIS SON are alive forever! I do not stand for everything my Church does wrong, but the original message was true. The papacy allows all over the earth the culture and practices of the people old pagan beliefs under their umbrella. You also have more priest committing disgusting sexual acts against boys that the church have not address neither has Pope Francis. Yes, sin of all types are in the SDA Church, but not on the level of the terrible acts of Catholic priest. What I will do is pray for you that you open your eyes to truth and sin and not the Church as a whole. Finally, I will stand and say base on the Bible in Revelation, the whore wears purple, and she has golds and jewelry of all precious stones, she has a golden cup in her hand and she has all the kings of the world to commit adultery with her against the TRUE FATHER, ELOHIM. If that does not sound like the Catholic Church than who else? This Church have take more money from its people, lie to it's people, murdered many people through out history, is the only one in Unite Nation, has a small city but it is called a country, is the riches church in the world, wears purple have gold show in it church, and drinks out of a golden cup! So get of the SDA Church and blame the Bible if you dare and stop lying on EGW as well. Blessings!
Please remember that SDA folks aren't bashing Catholic people. It's the Roman Catholic system that is at fault in our opinion. True, Mr. Batchelor is responding to the Pope's message, but the Pope's message is based on the Roman Catholic system. We don't attack people.
Anonymous,
First the Pope's message is based in love… and unity…
The pope spoke of loving God and your brother. He spoke of re-unity of the brothers of Joseph in Egypt. He spoke of the miracle of God reuniting His people today.
Yes absolutely that IS the Roman Catholic system because it is what CHRIST SAID!… love and unity. Did the pope say something in his address that you could criticize? I would think you would eager agree with his message. It is the message Christ gave to His people. Unite… love….
Doug is being paranoid and cynical by saying "I just want to make sure that everybody is not tricked into thinking that this is all as homey and heartfelt as it is made to appear." Is Doug God that he can judge the pope's heart? That was incredibly UN Christian of Doug to assume there is some type of trickery in these words of love and unity. In fact, Doug is approaching slander and breaking the commandment of "bearing false witness against thy neighbor." Remember CHRIST taught the things the pope is discussing.
matt:10:35-39
Dear Teresa,
I agree that the doctrine of love is central of our faith. True love is from God, we love because we received it from Him. It is also written of God's character that "Mercy and truth have met together, Righteousness and peace have kissed." (Psalms 85:10). So you see, the doctrine of love cannot exist alone without truth, just as how the doctrine of truth cannot have power without love.
In this light we must judge the doctrines of the Catholic church. For myself, I do not support their image worship , prayer and worship of saints and Mary, the ability of priests and the pope to absolve sin, the ability to change doctrines and biblical truths because of the infallibility of the church and the pope. We do not have any evidence in the bible that all this is supported by God. "Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven." (Matthew 23:9).
Now I am not a judge of hearts, only God is, but I know that the spirit of God does not abide in those who espouse false doctrines. In fact, Paul says this in Romans "I appeal to you, brothers, to watch out for those who cause divisions and create obstacles contrary to the doctrine that you have been taught; avoid them. For such persons do not serve our Lord Christ, but their own appetites, and by smooth talk and flattery they deceive the hearts of the naive." (Roman 16:17-18) ... By smooth talk and flattery they deceive, but their beliefs are contrary to the doctrine you have been taught.
As a Seventh day adventist, I would love to see unity and love of the Christian family, but not if it means at the sacrifice of truth. How can any non-catholic have "the same love, being of one accord, of one mind" (Phil 2:2) if their minds do not agree with the Catholic church?
Thanks for reading my perspective. I'll end with a quote from Jeremiah: "They have also healed the hurt of My people slightly, Saying, ‘Peace, peace!’ When there is no peace. Were they ashamed when they had committed abomination? No! They were not at all ashamed; Nor did they know how to blush. Therefore they shall fall among those who fall; At the time I punish them, They shall be cast down,” says the Lord." (Jeremiah 6:14:15)
With love,
Jenny
Dear Anonymous,
I have never, ever advocated the sacrifice of truth. Absolutely Christ IS TRUTH. So the nearer we come to Christ we will be coming nearer to truth! What we have to do is walk in faith and OBEY and Christ will have the miracle we need to begin teaching us ALL truth.
What DID Christ mean when He urged us to be unified? Surely Christ knew that there would be divisions in the church over doctrine? Even BITTER divisions? And yet He still commanded EVEN WITHIN the bitter divisions of Biblical interpretation that we need to be unified? How could that happen? If Christ commanded us to be unified, He HAD to provide a way for He didn't simply say it to scold us but to HEAL us! All we need to do is be obedient.
Protestants themselves have many differences. There are many, many contentions among Protestants themselves, so we need to realize the splintering is all over the body of Christ from Protestant to Orthodox to Catholic and even within each and every church there is divisions and splintering. The world will KNOW that we are Christians by our unity. As long as we stay disobedient and stubborn in our walk with Christ, refusing to walk in obedience to Him, we will never see His miracle of unity in Spirit and Truth.
It is a prideful spirit that says, "I will not unify with my brother because I do not agree with his doctrines." As if Christ must FIRST get our permission and explain it all to us before we obey. And that is exactly the prideful spirit that Ellen White's prophecies ingrain in the believer.
So again I repeat, the Seventh-day Adventist Christian who wants to live in obedience to Christ's commandments, is placed in a very difficult position. Either they are obedient to the Word of God or the Word of Ellen. In the area of unity, there is a very sharp disagreement between what Christ taught and what Ellen wrote.
Hi Teresa,
Yes, if we walk in faith and obey, Christ will teach us all truth. However, Christ has never asked us to reunite with those who support false doctrines.
History has shown us that this is not the case. It was the Spirit of God that had called us out of the Catholic church, and begun the reformation. Had we remained under Catholic rule, we would never have understood the new light we now take for granted... the meaning of justification by grace through faith alone, that Jesus is our intercessor alone between God. During the 1260 years of Catholic power, that "unity" did nothing but to keep the people of God were kept in basic darkness, believing in the words of the pope and his priests, and the infallibility of the Church, rather than the word of God. It was the Spirit of God that brought out reformators such as John Wycliffe, Jan Huss, and Martin Luther. When Luther was asked to recant under threat of death, he said "I cannot and will not recant anything, since it is neither safe nor right to go against conscience, Here I stand. I can do no other."
And has the papacy really changed since then? Has the pope realized that it is wrong to claim infallibility, confessed the errors of his ways, and admit that he is just a man? If the world is better today in anyway, it is because of the true followers of God. There are indeed many sincere followers in the Catholic church, but if they want to learn the true path of salvation, they need to come to us, not the other way around.
How ironical that the papacy refers us as the brothers of Joseph and himself as Joseph, the wronged brother. It was not us who killed believers by the thousands and burned "heretics" at the stakes. The pope only wishes that he were Joseph. After all, it was Joseph that had the vision that his brother would bow down to him. "And he dreamed yet another dream, and told it to his brothers, and said, Behold, I have dreamed another dream; and, behold, the sun and the moon and the eleven stars bowed down to me." (Gen 37:9).
Dear Teresa, let us search within ourselves for guidance from God. Let us rekindle that first love, and become stronger preachers of the truth, bring people to the throne of God. It is not through a false unity, but through acceptance of the Holy Spirit that we can be led to have the same mind, same love. If we can preach with the power of the Holy Spirit, we do not have to worry about how the world views us, because the Spirit will show them that we have the truth.
Finally, I am a follower of God's word. I have read Ellen Whites writings and can only testify of her sincerity and that she has a true relationship with God. Let us not speak against our own sister.
With love,
Jenny
Hi Jenny,
Thanks so much for taking the time to respond.
Here's the basic problem with that line of thinking. I used to be Adventist. I left it because I sincerely, through years of research, prayer and study, came to believe that Adventism's doctrines were not just unscriptural but anti-christian. I believe the SDA church is spreading some doctrines that are dangerously unspiritual. However, when it comes to following Christ, I do not get an "opt out" card of uniting with Adventists because I sincerely believe them to have cultish doctrines in the Investigative Judgment, Sabbath as a test, or Ellen White as a prophetess. Indeed I even believe Ellen to be a false prophetess, but again…. Christ doesn't ask my opinion about whether I think we shouldn't unite because I think they are spreading dangerous spiritual heresy. I have to put my opinions aside and follow Christ's command and have faith that through unity, truth will prevail.
Let's look at what Christ said, John 10: 16,17, "I have other sheep that do not belong to this fold. I must bring them also, and they will listen to my voice. So there will be one flock, one shepherd. For this reason the Father loves me, because I lay down my life in order to take it up again."
Calling for unity is part of the gospel itself. Unity is the fabric of the gospel and truth and unity cannot be divided. Christ is both truth and unity and He calls all of His followers into unity. That is part of having faith in HIM. We draw towards each other in love and obedience and He will provide the unity of faith and truth. It will surely be a miracle if we simply obey His command of unity.
So, in our obedience to Christ, we step out in faith and begin the process of unity and then know that God will provide. Faith and Truth cannot be compromised at all, ever, for any reason. So in our coming together we do not compromise truth. We must never, ever compromise truth, but we have faith that as we tear down those walls of suspicion, God will always guard His everlasting truths.
Now, where I feel you might want to go back and read some non-SDA history you will find that the Catholic church isn't the big bad wolf you were told. If you are truly wanting to follow truth, start reading the history of how Protestants slaughtered Catholics and read the history of the inquisition from the Catholic side and you will find out just why we did what we did. It isn't anything like you have been told.
I believe Ellen White was a sincere believer in Christ too. I also know that she had a head trauma and that many physicians of the day said that her visions were directly due to the head trauma. I also know that the accompanying angel who told her things spoke directly against scripture. So, I think it is very possible that she was deceived or perhaps mentally ill. I hold no ill will for her, I just know she was not given truths we should follow. I think she is probably in heaven because again, no one is culpable who is mentally ill.
Theresa, when you were a Seventh day Adventist, did you study biblical prophecies in depth? It's not something that all members of the church seek to study, and it is not something that Ellen White's writings goes into in much detail.
I ask because I believe that we are close to the end times, and the books that were sealed are now open (Dan 12:4). For me, the events presented in biblical prophecies are powerful evidences. And it’s not based on the interpretation of a few passages or verses, but based on many of the visions of Daniel (Dan 2, 7, 8, 9, and 11) and Revelation, which continue to describe the same events but with successively greater detail.
Jenny,
You have fortitude to come back and discuss difficult things. I appreciate that! Most people want to run from disagreements.
Yes, I was a great enthusiast for last day prophecies since I was a young girl. I had an uncle who was a professional eschatologist. He would, quite literally, plop us down as youngsters in front of a big chalk board and chart out last day events. (He wasn't Adventist). I would then go to my Bible teachers in school and ask them about what my uncle would say and they would give me the SDA response.
Last day events have always intrigued me and so I began studying history and scripture and found out what I had been taught by SDAs simply wasn't historical. It was quite the blow for I loved being Adventist. It took me twenty years to leave because I was so, absolutely certain, that if I could just show Adventists where they were wrong biblically and historically their eyes would be opened! Alas, that didn't happen.
Adventists conflate many of Daniel's prophecies with Revelations. They wrongly assume that the 2300 daily sacrifices are "days" meaning "years." And that is a complete misunderstanding of Jewish thought. Each day there was a morning and evening sacrifice. If there were 2300 sacrifices, that would mean only 1150 days were being spoken of. Adventists do not go back and research how JEWISH people would have read those passages and assumed they could look at them and interpret them with a 19th century worldview. So, so much is misunderstood because of that and it was so unnecessary.
Adventists place themselves into the Revelation passage of the three angels. And yet we know each angel was separate--so one church could not be all three angels. There are many, many similar misunderstandings of Adventist interpretation. Please read my book, "It's Okay NOT to be a Seventh-day Adventist" and you will see a much more extensive explanation of this.
There are several SDA beliefs that place them in a terrible position.
If the year 1844 was insignificant in Bible prophesy, the SDA church collapses.
If the end-times test is not biblical, the SDA church collapses.
If Ellen White wasn't a prophetess and her visions were not of God, the SDA church collapses.
I found each one of these things to be the case. And God allowed me to survive my own personal Great Disappointment in the church of my youth. But the good news is that God takes you out and flies with you to such greater heights that it seems a mere trifle that you believed something untrue. It humbles you and then Christ reveals more and more truth that you hardly even recognize what you believed in the past.
Each person is on their own faith journey and each goes at a different rate, but we are all being drawn into the Savior's love and protective arms. He is healing us from the deceptions of Satan and slowly tearing our coveted theology from our grasp and giving us the freedom to see the Truth unfiltered. I pray that each of us continue on that journey towards Him.
I have a different view unrelated to membership in the SDA - or any denomination for that matter. It is a fact that Jesus asked the Father to make all his followers one, "as we are one". But he was speaking primarily about the two divergent classes of people God was bringing together in Jesus - namely Jews and "gentiles." Obviously, since the institutional organized Church hadn't developed yet or split into its present state of some 30,000 heretical divisions. Speaking as a former Roman Catholic who was saved in 1973, and who has since come out of all forms of Roman and Protestant Catholicism, there can be no unity in error. Only a certain enforced uniformity. Believers belong to the spiritual organism of Messiah's body, not the man-made organization of Rome and all her daughter denominations.
This return to Rome, I believe, is the final apostasy that the true believer is commanded to come out of. For it is not of God. "Do not be bound together with unbelievers. For what partnership have righteousness and lawlessness, or what fellowship has light with darkness" (2 Cor. 6:14). Brian
So what is the unity of faith, baptism, spirit….what is this "oneness" that all Christians must have in order for the world to see that He is the Christ, the Son of God? It is indeed a commandment of Christ that all must obey. It is not optional. Many people place the impediment of "organizational" unity in the way and assume we can't unify. Some people use the excuse of "truth"….until we all agree on truth we can't unify.
Yet, God doesn't give us those excuses. He tells us to unify. How DO we obey His commandment to unify? We will not be able to stand in front of our maker one day and respond, "I didn't obey you because I didn't want Truth to be compromised." or "I didn't obey because I thought unity was about organizational unity of a specific church."
God calls us to live in faith. Faith IN HIM. That means walking where we are scared to walk, walking where it might seem frightening and we do not understand. It takes a lot of faith to walk where we cannot see the destination, but we know one thing, Christ said to unify. We better put aside our prejudices and our opinions and our fears and obey.
My purpose is not to argue with you. It seems as if we both are probably set in our ways. Arguing will not change that. I am, however, curious as to how one makes the leap from Seventh-day Adventism which IMO is one of the few protestant movements that is still "protesting" .......to becoming a Roman Catholic? Amos 3:3 also says "Can two walk together unless they agree?" Jesus and the pharasees both claimed to have a common faith in God but could NOT agree. Though Jesus pleaded with them an the Jewish nation, He and the disciples werent about to sacrifice truth for unity. This same Jesus who speaks of unity in his last prayer is also the subject of the book of Revelation. (The revelation of Jesus Christ). And unless you dont believe that a woman represents a church in bible prophecy anymore, the fact of the matter is Jesus is calling "his people" out of "babylon". There is division among professed christians in revelation in accordance to Christs commands. Really interested in how you make the stretch from SDA to RC though.
Hi Anonymous,
Sorry, I didn't read us as having an argument, just having a discussion. I think the woman of Revelation could be a church. And it could be the Catholic or Orthodox or even a Protestant church. We just don't know as it hasn't been revealed to us. It could be the SDA church. The whore could very well be a splinter church off a mainstream church or even a Jewish sect. But I wouldn't slander a church as the potential "woman" of revelation in advance of it happening. That is against the commandment of bearing false witness against your neighbor. That would be like me calling the police and saying your spouse is a pedophile because I believe he/she has the profile of a pedophile. That is horrible, absolutely a horrible thing to do to a person who is not a pedophile.
While the Catholic Church has had some really bad moments in her history, so has every other church. All humans fall short and any church that includes humans will fall short. So Catholic history doesn't predict Catholic future any more than the horrors done to Catholics by the Anglican church foretells a future Anglican persecution of Catholics.
How did I go from SDA to Roman Catholic. Simple. By reading my Bible. Adventism obviously didn't fit scripture. Then I worshipped and studied all the other mainstream Protestant denominations and, though they fit scripture MUCH, MUCH better than Adventism, there were still so many things that didn't begin to make sense to me. When I asked theological questions I was told to keep it simple and have faith. But that is really stupid. It is saying that scripture is our authority, but if you can't understand it, obey anyway, like you are supposed to obey a parent who isn't speaking loud enough for you to get all the words.
When I finally began studying Catholicism and I understood HOW to read scripture, it all fell into place--theologically, historically, biblically, reasonably. All my questions were answered with utter logic and scripture. And I HATED that. I mean I was so upset I spent months angry with the Catholic apologists who I thought were just lying to me. Then I started reading the early church fathers and began becoming educated as to how the early church worshipped and what they said Jesus MEANT by what He said. And after all, that is what interpretation of the Bible comes down to. What did Jesus MEAN when He said stuff like, "Be ye perfect, even as your Father in heaven is perfect." and the last judgment where sheep and goats are separated, not by their faith, but by their works.
The Catholics ended up being smarter by 100 times any Protestant scholar I studied--and I had studied most of them. The Catholics have 2000 years of walking with Christ and as the Bride of Christ they know what they speak about.
I pray for you teresa, that you try to obey all Gods commandments and find your name in the book of life. For if you don't you'll find yourself with the mark of the beast. All who strive to obey the commandments will receive His seal and be united as one. I pray this your goal.
No teresa Doug has never proclaimed to be God why don't you ask the pope the same thing. I believe he claims to be the vicar to the Lord. If you don't know what that means it surely would not surprise me. May the one and only Lord (not the pope or mary) forgive you for you do not know
No Adventist is bowing or worshipping Ellen, we follow the Bible and Jesus Christ and the Lords commandments and that's it. Not the pope or mary because that in its self is sin! We will be praying for you though. Why don't the Catholics put away their doctrines and come follow our movement you are all invited to church next Sabbath
Teresa give some examples of these false doctrines you came about while at SDA because I'd love to match doctrine for doctrine with the Catholic church
Teresa it doesn't take a prophet to know, you can't modify or change Gods commandments(which the Catholic church acknowledges that they changed the Sabbath to Sunday) and I would like to discuss these false doctrines you mentioned, because I've never met a Catholic who was willing to go there against the SDA and I'm guessing you're not going to either. Otherwise you can just go to mass on the first day of the week bow and pray to a statue of mary and watch your"father" sacrifice Jesus on the cross again
Are you saying the SDA slaughtered Catholics because to say ANY religious groups slaughtered Catholics is just ridiculous and ignorant. All this time in church has not served you well. I pray you see the light
Hi Teresa,
Hope you are well, sorry to the late reply. Glad to see this page active in discussion.
The prophecies I was referring to is much more than just the 2300 years of prophecy, though the interpretation concerning it is solid. The visions refer to the different kingdoms in the past, and also the dark ages in Europe.
Just how do the Jewish read the times/days mentioned in Daniel concerning the first advent of their Messiah? Well in their Talmud it is written "Blasted be[18] the bones of those who calculate the end.[19] For they would say, since the predetermined time has arrived, and yet he has not come, he will never come." (Talmud Sanhedrin 97b, Soncino edition, p. 659.) http://www.come-and-hear.com/sanhedrin/sanhedrin_97.html#PARTb
The meaning of “evenings and mornings” is a day. In Genesis, God laid out the meaning of a day as sunrise to sunset, not as from midnight to midnight as we've come to know.
But regardless, it does not matter how the Jewish would read Daniel concerning prophecy, because these things are spiritually discerned. We already know how they interpret Isaiah regarding the advent of the Messiah. Despite it being in their native tongue, most did not and still do not believe that it pointed to Jesus. They say it is us who are reading it wrong.
Ellen White preached about unity also, but true unity. It is not the watered down version that is being circulated today. True unity is led by faith, its counterfeit, by presumptuousness. We will be able to judge a movement by its fruits, so we will see.
Ellen White wrote about unity in her book Desire of Ages, concerning the differences of the apostles.
“The apostles differed widely in habits and disposition. There were the publican, Levi-Matthew, and the fiery zealot Simon, the uncompromising hater of the authority of Rome, the generous, impulsive Peter, and the mean-spirited Judas; Thomas, truehearted, yet timid and fearful. Philip, slow of heart, and inclined to doubt, and the ambitious, outspoken sons of Zebedee, with their brethren. These were brought together, with their different faults, all with inherited and cultivated tendencies to evil, but in and through Christ they were to dwell in the family of God, learning to become one in faith, in doctrine, in spirit. They would have their tests, their grievances, their differences of opinion; but while Christ was abiding in the heart, there could be no dissension. His love would lead to love for one another; the lessons of the Master would lead to harmonizing of all differences, bringing the disciples into unity, till they would be of one mind and one judgement. Christ is the great center, and they would approach one another just in proportion as they approached the center.” Desire of Ages, Chapter “He ordained Twelve”
Regards,
Jenny
Why do Catholics pray to idols, go to church on the first day of the week, refer to the pope as his holiness, confess sins to a preist, and believe that mary is devine. If scripture led to Catholic tell where you justify any those things from scripture so that I may see the"light"
You are truly drunken by her wine!
Why approval? Just post
Steve the vicar of Christ is not saying that one is Christ. Vicar is someone who is appointed as a stand in… an ambassador… All who claim to be Christians are vicars of Christ in that we represent Him on earth to unbelievers. Protestants want to invent controversy when there is none. There is no more pompousness in saying one is a vicar of Christ than saying one is a Christian (meaning "little Christ.")
Steve, if you will look around on this site you will see I have spent years discussing these things.
By the way, I often go to mass on Saturday… and often daily. Catholics worship daily.
Anonymous,
When I was allowing people to post without first approving them, I got many international advertising sites that would just randomly post and often they were not morally approvable. That is why I don't allow advertising here. I don't want people to have to wade through inappropriate ads to read my blog. And add to that people who use offensive language. Lots of good reasons to approve comments before they are posted.
Anonymous wrote:
"Why do Catholics pray to idols, go to church on the first day of the week…. If scripture led Catholic tell where you justify those things from scripture so that I may see the light."
My response:
You have a basic misunderstanding of Catholicism. I think that I see where we are going off the tracks. Protestants sprung up in the 16th century and declared themselves "sola scriptura" and they see scripture as their final authority. I understand that. Unlike Protestants, Catholics did not go to scripture and try and interpret it for their dogmas. The Catholic Church began three hundred years BEFORE the scriptures were compiled into a Bible. They didn't READ their dogmas in scripture. They HEARD their dogmas from the Apostles. Catholic DOGMAS (not to be confused with disciplines) are straight from the Apostles mouths. LATER, centuries LATER the Catholic church (at the councils of Rome, Hippo and Carthage in the late 4th and 5th centuries) had to go through hundreds of manuscripts that claimed to have been written by Apostles and decide which were authentic and put it together as the Bible.
So Catholics were preaching all her dogmas WAY WAY before the Bible was compiled. And as a matter of fact it is impossible for the Bible to contradict Catholicism. The Bible was put together by Catholic bishops who compared the manuscripts WITH CATHOLIC TEACHING and if what was being written by a supposed Apostle didn't agree with what the Church had ALWAYS taught since Christ's death, they threw the manuscript out as false. The Bible became God's book because the Catholic Church said it was. It was Catholic bishops who decided what books would be in the New Testament, which canon would be accepted for the old Testament. The Bible is considered inerrant and infallible NOT because the scripture itself claims that…. but because the Catholic Church TRADITION calls the Scripture the infallible, inerrant Word of God.
So you see, you have a real problem with saying the Bible contradicts the Catholic Church. It doesn't. In fact, it cannot. For the Church birthed the scriptures, the scriptures did not birth the church. If you doubt that please go back and read the history (primary sources) of the first five hundred years of the Church.
Also:
The Church ALWAYS worshipped on the first day of the week. In fact it worshipped daily. We do not worship idols, all Christians are called to holiness and anyone can be called holy. We do not believe Mary is divine. Those are all misunderstandings of what Catholics teach. Blessings to you and may your heart be open to searching for truth.
The unity that Jesus spoke about, is unity based on the proclamation of the same truth. To be one heart, one mind also means to believe the same way. Catholics believe that Mary plays the same role of intermediate as Jesus, they believe in the prayers of the dead Saints, they believe in bowing down in front of images. These are considered idolatry.
Unity does not come through signing an agreement, so that Protestants would stop denouncing idolatry of Mary and images. Unity of one mind comes hey lining yourself with the truth and proclaiming it openly, not by signing documents with self appointed leaders.
The real unity requires that:
(1) the Catholic Church start preaching clearly against its own heresies and acknowledging them publicly when they preach. The way the apostle Paul did about himself.
(2) the Catholic Church need to say that they were wrong on salvation by works, say to their congregations.
(3) the Catholic Church needs to denounce all the murders that were committed, openly, publicly when when People John Hans were beheaded for their stand on s
Unity is not about Signing agreement!
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It sad to see that many do not understand the real unity. Unity does not come from signing an agreement between leaders of groups. Unity is trough the truth. We just need to be proclaiming the same truth, than unity will appear by itself. The apostle Paul and Peter, were not going around to seek people to sign an agreement. They preached the word to convince and convert people 2Tim 3:16-17. The five folds ministry are not send by Jesus to go sign agreement but to teach. The one mind, one accord lead to the proclamation of the same type of message.
(1) The catholic church needs to teach openly, publicly to their people that the church was wrong to kill those who proclaimed salvation by faith alone.
(2) The catholic church needs to teach openly that praying to Mary and the Saints is an act of idolatry
(3) The catholic church needs to teach their people that Mary is not co-eternal with Jesus, she is not the mother of God. That Mary does not intercede for as Jesus do. That Mary too needed to receive Jesus as her savior and Lord to be saved.
(4) The catholic church ruled as a single church for 1260 years, they never brought unity but heresies and idolatry, they beheaded and killed all those who opposed them. They killed more than 30 million during the protestant reformation. Jan Hus was beheaded for preaching the same thing that Martin Luther proclaimed 100 years latter.
(5) real unity is when the catholic church leaders, stand inside their own churches, preach against their own Heresies. and denounce all the past wrong doing of their own organization. The apostle Paul did the same kind of things by openly denouncing his own persecution of the church. Then through his preaching he became the great preacher of salvation by grace through faith alone. HE DID NOT NEED TO SIGN AGREEMENT FOR THAT.
(6) Behind this agreement : the catholic church want you to stop denouncing their heresies and the idolatry of Mary and the images of saints.
(7) Unless unity is based on the proclamation, the truth and the denouncing of the wrong, the Anti-Christ is behind this action.
Anon,
Yes, truth must and indeed cannot be in any way compromised. Christ would and even COULDN'T say we compromise truth to be unified in Him, because HE IS TRUTH. So the more we are "in" Christ, the more we are in Truth and Unity. So never think that Catholics or whoever is calling for unity within the body of Christ would even consider compromising and allowing falsehood into the kingdom.
I also do not believe unity is the signing of an agreement. Truth and unity comes from obedience to Christ. Obedience to Christ is the fruit of our faith. Obedience shows the world we are part of Christ's body. And we are commanded to live both in unity and in truth. So we are really placed in a difficult position, aren't we? How do all these fractured, independent churches going to agree on truth so they can unify?
Well perhaps we are putting the cart before the horse. Perhaps we are demanding that WE are placed as leader and judge over the unity, which we are not. Christ never suggested we look over the people we are to have unity with and tell us we are to judge them. Nope, Christ is the judge. We are to merely be obedient and leave the truth to HIM! That is showing both extreme faith and extreme obedience. Only those with these things will ever see the miracle of unity. That is what I pray for. That each of those who claim to be Christians, will take steps towards each other in faith and know that God will do miracles as we walk in obedience and HE will take care of and preserve truth.
Just as Abraham walked up the mountain with his son Isaac who wanted to know what the sacrifice would be, Abraham replied in faith, "The Lord will provide." I pray we all have that kind of faith.
I see that you wrote the same thing twice, so please scroll up the comments for my full answer. (I think it is a sub-comment after the first comment.)
Let me now reply to your list of seven objections you have to the Catholic Church. I think you will discover there is some good news and bad news.
1. I don't recall a person the Catholic Church killed because they preached "faith alone." They may have excommunicated them, but I don't think the "sola fide" has any martyrs or Martin Luther and Calvin would have been burned at the stake. Huss wasn't taken to the stake for teaching sola fide. If you wouldn't mind providing an example you have in mind and then we can discuss it.
2. GOOD NEWS!! The Catholic Church teaches that idolatry is a mortal sin and so it could never, ever teach its members to worship Mary or the saints. You have a misunderstanding of what Catholics teach. They teach to honor Mary and the saints and to ask them to pray FOR us! Just as we ask each other to pray for us, so we can ask those in heaven to pray for us too! If they were divine, we wouldn't be asking them to pray for us. The Trinity is alone divine. Sorry so many Protestants misunderstand this. In fact the Catholic Catechism is very clear that if your honoring of Mary or the saints is even PERCEIVED of as worship, you should stop. (But… few read and obey the Catechism…)
3) More good news!! The Catholic Church does not teach that Mary is co-eternal with Christ. Mary was conceived just like all humans at a point in time. Jesus was ALWAYS with God as John tells us in the first chapter of his gospel. She is the mother of God in that Jesus was God, and she was His mother. That doesn't make her God. Catholics should know that Mary does NOT intercede with the Father like Christ does. If a Catholic does think that, they are very ignorant of church teaching. The Catholic church clearly teaches that Mary WAS saved by the cross and the merits of Christ. She did not save herself.
4). Lots of Protestant propaganda during the Reformation that was exaggerated. If the church had killed 30 million people, that would be well over half Europe's population at the time. All historians today laugh at that figure. It is impossible. Thorough research has shown that at the very most, over the 700 years of the inquisition, the Catholic STATES (not the church) put to death less than 10,000 Catholics for their publicly pushing heresy and often they were considered traitors to the state. Their heresies invoked much enmity between the civic rulers and the people. They were inciting violence. You can see in many historical court cases that people plead to be tried by the church rather than by the civic leaders because Rome's courts were very lenient.
The religious massacres only began AFTER the Reformers stirred up dissent. In the German Peasants uprising more than 100,000 people were slaughtered. Germans blamed this on Luther! So in one uprising more than 10 times the amount of deaths occurred than all the 700 years of the inquisition. Very, very sad.
5) You keep referring to a unity contract that needs to be signed that I am unaware of? Is the Catholic Church asking you to sign something? I haven't heard about this.
6) No, Catholics want unity because Christ commanded it and said the world will KNOW He is the Son of God and the world will KNOW we are Christians by our unity. There is no conspiracy, just a desire to be obedient to Christ.
7) The anti-christ may very well mimic Christ's command, but we must be very careful we don't disobey Christ in order to avoid the Devil's deception. And to assume anyone calling for unity in obedience to Christ is the anti-Christ is to slander your brother. That is against the commandment of "thou shalt not bear false witness against they neighbor."
I think if you look into Catholicism with a more open heart and mind, you will discover she is not the big bad wolf you have been taught. She may have her blemishes, but all man does. In fact Christ even TELLS us that His church is going to be filled with bad scandal and wolves. (See Matt. 13) Rather than show us that is the Whore of Babylon, it is the very definition of the Kingdom of God until Christ comes again.
If you see a perfect church? It's NOT the kingdom of God!
Seventh-day Adventists accept the Bible as the only source of our beliefs. We consider our movement to be the result of the Protestant conviction Sola Scriptura—the Bible as the only standard of faith and practice for Christians. The Holy Scriptures, Old and New Testaments, are the written Word of God, given by divine inspiration through holy men of God who spoke and wrote as they were moved by the Holy Spirit. In this Word, God has committed to man the knowledge
necessary for salvation. The Holy Scriptures are the infallible revelation of His will. They are the standard of character, the test
of experience, the authoritative revealer of doctrines, and the trustworthy record of God’s acts in history. (2 Peter 1:20, 21; 2
Tim. 3:16, 17; Ps. 119:105; Prov. 30:5, 6; Isa. 8:20; John 17:17; 1 Thess. 2:13; Heb. 4:12.)
Anonymous,
Are you aware that the SDA church accepts the scripture as the written Word of God on the authority of the Catholic Church? It is Catholic TRADITION that tells us what books were written by the Apostles, it was Catholic bishops who put together the written word into what is today known as the Bible 300 years after Christ died?
The scriptures themselves do not say that they are infallible nor inerrant. That isa tradition of the Catholic Church. If it were not for the Catholic Church, there would be no Bible. We decided what books were authoritative, we copied it, we translated it, we were persecuted and martyred to preserve it, monks in the dark ages of Europe saved it by carefully copying it.
We would not have the Bible if it weren't for the Catholic Church. It is our authority also.
Blessings.
Thank you very much for your blog.Indeed the Holy Spirit is working through you. I was born a Catholic and I am still one.I have experienced Jesus Christ and His love in my life and my family. Whenever I read or hear some SDAs mechanically criticizing the Catholic Church harshly, all of them almost using the same phrases, I only pity them and pray for them.In most of them, I always detect some sense of spiritual dryness. I always reflect on my experience in the Catholic Church, where I can attest that Jesus Christ is very present, and feel that these our brothers and sisters are missing a lot. I have some very close relatives in the SDA Church who have opportunistically attempted to convert me since I was in my boyhood. They used to give me books written by Ellen G. White, accompanied by harsh criticisms against the Catholic Church(from their mouths).They even invited me to their church and I actually attended some services, but I felt very dry. I was not convinced.
I remain a Catholic and I urge fellow Catholics to pray for these our brothers and sisters, so that Jesus can speak to their hearts; so that they can drop, for a moment, the attitude and behavior of the Pharisees, and listen to the Holy Spirit. As Catholics, we know the power of prayers and how the Holy Spirit can work wonders.Also, as Catholics, we only know how to love, meekly, like Jesus Christ. May Our Lord have mercy on them and deliver them from the seat of the Pharisees.
queria que respondessem qual foi a 1a Igreja pq com certeza não foi a Catolica...
As profecias apontavam o aparecimento do anticristo que jogaria a verdade por terra (av respeito do Sábadoe outros) que foram instituÃdos pelo próprio Deus na semana da criação para a 1a e única igreja de Deus na Terra (os que guardam os mandamentos de êxodo 20) começando pelos judeus (definitivamente a 1a igreja)... vocês católicos são Romanos de ROMA!!! igreja pagã... essa e a verdade....
Hi Anonymous,
Would you mind translating your comments from Portuguese into English for us/ Thank you? Should I say gracias? How do you say thank you in Portuguese?
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